Ep 1: Conservation Through Recreation and the Flyathlon, with Andrew Todd
Andrew Todd is the President of Running Rivers and founder of the Rocky Mountain Flyathlon, which focuses on Conservation through Recreation. The Flyathlon combines running, fishing, and beer drinking into a triathlon-style race that raises money for native trout conservation. Andrew is an avid trail runner and fly fisherman, and through his nonprofit, Running Rivers, has raised over $150,000 to help protect the cutthroats of Colorado.
Instagram: @flyathlon
Website: runningrivers.org
Facebook: facebook.com/flyathlon
Twitter: @flyathlon
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Intro
You're listening to the Wild Initiative podcast network. Learn more and check out all the shows at thewildinitiative.com. listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast where we talk all things fishing, conservation, and the outdoors. Today on the show I'm joined by Andrew Todd, the president of Running Rivers and the founder of the annual Rocky Mountain Flyathlon.
Katie
All right, welcome to the Fish Untamed Podcast. My name is Katie. This is episode number one. I figured I'd hop on here for a minute and just quickly introduce what this show is and where I hope to take it just before we get into the interview portion. I run a website called Fish Untamed and I mostly mostly talk about backcountry fly-fishing anything from fishing tips to gear to food pretty much anything that I think an outdoorsman would find interesting and I figured the next step was to start to talk to other people who probably have more interesting stories and more knowledge than I do and just kind of be a sponge for what I can learn from them in partnership with what I like to produce. So that's kind of my goal for this show and we'll see how much it changes along the way. It'll be mostly fly fishing but also probably talk to some gear fishermen along the way as well. Today is definitely a fly fishing show. I'm talking to Andrew Todd who's the president of the non-profit Running Rivers which is a conservation organization helping native trout out west, mostly in Colorado right now. And he's also the founder of the Flyathlon, which is a triathlon-style race, but instead of running, swimming, and biking, the events are running, fishing, and drinking beer. Although, I am supposed to remind everyone that beer drinking is not actually a competitive portion, and as you'll hear in the interview, Andrew's lawyers are glad that I mentioned that. So, I think this will be a super interesting conversation, especially if you've never heard of the Flyathlon, because it's a really awesome event. It's raised over $100,000 toward native trout conservation, so I assume that any fly fisherman listening will appreciate the work that Running Rivers has done and the money raised through the fly-a-thon. So, without further ado, here's my talk with Andrew Todd. How's it going, Andrew? Thanks for stopping in today.
Andrew
It's going great. How are you doing?
Katie
Pretty good. Walking again and hopefully going camping this weekend for the first time in a while, so... We're not sure yet. I don't know how far I can walk right now, but I'll probably be going somewhere with fishing, but probably not more than a half mile walk or so. Have you been fishing at all?
Andrew
Yeah, I took the girls fishing on Sunday up behind our cabin in Westcliffe and they all caught fish including some cutthroat trout and a few brookies and my wife was fishing tenkara, which she swears by and She caught a bunch of fish. So it was a good it was a good day
Katie
Sounds good. Do you fish tenkara at all?
Andrew
I don't I'm more Traditional fly fisherman. I my rod of choice is a six-piece three-weight seven foot Rod that back, you know packs down to like less than a foot and that's that's perfect for running as well. So It's that's my I like the the versatility of a traditional rod and reel allows you to cast further and tenkara can be somewhat limiting and in some circumstances So I like I like the ability to do what I need to do to get to the fish
Katie
I kind of feel the same way I've got a tenkara, but I think I like playing with the line too much So I end up just taking that on like backpacking trips where I'm not sure if I'll get to fish just as a backup But when I can choose I usually choose a reel.
Andrew
Yeah, it's it's definitely the right tool and in some circumstances and the perfect tool in some circumstances, but it comes up lacking in others.
Katie
For sure. Well, the main topic that we're gonna get into today is the Flyathlon, since you are the kind of coordinator of the whole shebang. I know we have a lot of kind of sub topics in there to get to as well, but can we just start, can you just start by explaining what the Flyathlon is and maybe kind of where it started, how it came up?
Andrew
Sure, sure. So the Flyathlon was born out of just three passions that I've had for quite some time in trail running, fly fishing and craft beer. And you know, I've always kind of put them together because the best and dumbest fish are way back there. So if you're willing to run to get back to them, you can access some pretty awesome fishing. So and I have a craft beer problem. So I've always kind of paired the three. And then, God, it's almost six years ago, we held the first unofficial race, where I kind of thought, well, if I like doing these things, maybe some other people like it as well. And so the first one was up near Grand Lake. And it was highly unofficial and probably illegal, because it went through wilderness. And I guess our group was under 15, so technically it was legal. but we weren't permitted or anything and we were just kind of having fun. It was mostly friends and family. And after that one, everyone had such a good time that we decided to do an official race, which was in, I believe the first one was in 2013 down in, or 2014 down in Swatch, which is South Central Colorado. And, you know, we started off, I think it was 40 people. And I decided at some point that it could be a vehicle for good in that you've got all these people that are passionate about being outside and fly fishing and trail running. And maybe I could turn it into something that gave back to the areas that we were going to hold these things. And so that first year, I think the Flyathlon raised about $6,000, the Middle Creek race. and the next year it raised about 20 and we had increased the size of it to about 60 people. And then we added a race, the Lake Fork Flyathlon, which of course you've been to. And so over the years, I think this is year number six and the last five years we've raised over $150,000 started out through Colorado Trout Unlimited. They were kind of our fiscal partner in doing stuff on the ground. But we decided a couple of years ago now to create our own nonprofit, which we called Running Rivers, that now houses the Flyathlon and a couple other programs. Our motto is conservation through recreation. So we're trying to get people excited about conservation through fun activities like the Flyathlon, figuring that if these people are going to be out there, they might as well be invested in the areas that they're in and knowledgeable about the conservation challenges. And so that's what we've tried to do with the event, instead of having it just be a race, be something more than that. And the way we've raised money with the Flyathlon is through a crowdfunding model, which reaches even more people. So we ask the people that sign up to reach out to their friends and family, to contribute to their campaign, for lack of a better word. And so with that message of, in the case of Running Rivers, it's very native trout focused. And as our participants reach out to their friends and family, that message of native trout and why native trout are important gets out to a wider audience than just the people participating in the events. So the crowdfunding model has been a unique one. It's heavily reliant on our industry sponsors. we get a bunch of sponsors from out in the outdoor industry like Patagonia and Yeti Coolers and a number of fly fishing outfits. They donate gear that we use then to incentivize our race participants, or we call them fly athletes, to crowdfund. And so we have the biggest awards that we give out. We do give out awards for biggest and smallest fish and top male and female finisher, but the biggest awards that are donated from these outdoor industry companies are reserved for the people that raise the most money for conservation. So at its core, it's really a conservation event disguised as a lot of fun in the woods. And of course, there's lots of craft beer, which is not part of the race itself. So lawyers said that was a terrible idea. so we keep the beer after unless you choose to find it on the course. There may or may not be places where you can find beer and whiskey.
Katie
Yeah, I've had to explain when people have asked about the race. I usually start by describing it as a triathlon, but the events are running, fishing, and drinking beer. Then I have to specify that drinking beer isn't actually an event. It's just more of a perpetual activity throughout the entire weekend.
Andrew
Yes, my lawyer friends appreciate you clarifying that. To be honest, I think, at least over the last five years, knock on wood, we've been pretty reasonable. Although our demographic is all over the place, I mean, we've got people from their early 20s to their mid 60s, for the most part, people are out there to enjoy being outside and not to go overboard. So even though we've got a lot of great donated beers and whiskey, people keep it within reasonable limits. And by design, we've got these races in places that are pretty remote and isolated from Denver, both races in Colorado are at least three hours from Denver. So people aren't inclined to try to drive back or after a couple beers. It's really designed so that people come and camp. And I've found over the years, that's my favorite part of the whole deal is sitting around after and listening to people talk about the fish they caught or the one that got away. And sometimes the word cutthroat comes into that conversation. And that makes me really happy that people come and they stay. And the thing I didn't expect, but I've witnessed over the miracle that is social media is that people that have met come into these events, then go out and run together and fish together and hang out together. And that's kind of cool if we can create a culture of people getting out and enjoying these places with that conservation mindset in the background. Then in my mind, we've won with what we're trying to do.
Katie
Yeah, it's pretty impressive that after just a couple of years, you guys have already raised. I think the last figure I saw was like $150,000. Is it up to that high now? Or is it still between $100,000 and $150,000?
Andrew
So between the events in Colorado and then we've got an event that was kind of a franchise or offshoot of the Colorado races out in Iowa. And that is going into its third official year as well. And they've raised not as much money, but I think closing in on 20, $25,000 over those years for trout projects and native trout projects, brook trout projects in Iowa. But yeah, all told, I think we're after the last year, it was 160, something like that. And this year already, the Middle Creek Flyathlon has raised $16,000 and we've got two and a half weeks left and the goal for that one was 25 grand and there's always a flurry of activity at the end as the sandbaggers come out of the woodwork and call in their big guns to put 'em over the top to win cool donated gear. So I'm hopeful we can hit 25 with both races. We've raised more money with the races each year. And then the important thing is not just raising money, it's how we spend it on the ground. And so our nonprofit being a fledgling organization and all of us, it's an all volunteer organization. So everyone's got a day job. So we need partners to spend that money on the ground for conservation. And so we work through other nonprofits as well as state agencies and federal agencies to help them do their jobs and in a way that also meets our mission. So we partner with, we've got a big project this summer that's a partnership with Trout Unlimited, National Park Service and Colorado Parks and Wildlife to reclaim a really big watershed in the Sangre de Cristos for Rio Grande Cutthroat Trout, who are in, depending on what figure you look at between 12 and 15% of their historic occupied habitat and that's not a lot. So the goal is to expand that range into some watersheds that the one we're doing at the end of August is really well buffered against things like climate change. It's a big watershed, lots of water, the water's very cold. And right now it's got cutthroat trout hybrids as well as brook trout in there. And so the project that we've, our fly athletes help raise money for is to remove the fish that are in there and then replace them with the all native Rio Grande cutthroat trout. And that watershed will be a great place for conservation of that species. And they may actually, Parks and Wildlife is talking about using it as a brood stock, which is where you go and you use those fish to spawn and create fish other watersheds where you're trying to reclaim the fish and get somewhere from you know where we're at 12 to 15 percent you know can we get that number up closer to 20 or 30 in my mind that's a that's a more sustainable number long term when we consider things like on the horizon like climate change
Katie
mm-hmm are there are there more than one project going out at a time or because I know the website shows a kind of a list of projects but I wasn't sure if those were or past projects, current projects, and future projects, or if there's a bunch going on all at once, how does that work?
Andrew
Yeah, so there are any number of projects going on at any given time, or none at any time. It's really just a function of when these people are doing the work on the ground. So this summer we're doing a project with Colorado Parks and Wildlife where we're looking at the success of the, They stock high mountain lakes with Rio Grande cutthroat trout via plane. Some of these are so remote, over the last 20 years, they haven't gotten up to these lakes to characterize them to see the success or failure of their stocking, their biannual. Every other year, they're stocking fish in these lakes, and they don't know whether they're taking or what's going on with them. One of the projects we help fund is for a crew of seasonal employees to go up to as many of these lakes as possible and do surveys to determine if that stocking has been successful. In some cases it has, in others they've been feeding brook trout for 20 years. And then they'll adjust their management based on that information. So that's a project that's happening this summer, the Sand Creek Reclamation. We're partnering with Money Raised from the Lake Fork Race. we're partnering with Bureau of Land Management over on a tributary to Cebolla Creek, which goes into the Blue Mesa Reservoir. They're putting in a barrier, these cutthroat trout to survive long-term, they need to be isolated from those brook trout and rainbow trout that'll out-compete and breed with them, the rainbow trout will. And so building barriers or physical impassable barriers for those non-native fish to re-invade an area is critical. So we're spending $15,000 in conjunction with a lot of other partners to get this barrier built to isolate seven and a half miles of Colorado River cut through a trout habitat. Earlier this summer in June, we were working on a project in a drainage called Jim Creek, which is down in the San Luis Valley. And that project, the creek has been severely overgrazed over the years by cattle. And so the project is building fences to exclude cattle from coming in and trampling the creek, which widens the creek and makes it more shallow and prone to warming. And so we've, with Trout Unlimited, and Trout Unlimited's done a lot of the fencing work and the re-contouring of the stream. But our role, we've two years running now, we've had volunteers who have largely come from past events. So they're fly athletes coming out to volunteer to spend the money that they raised to what we did this year was we planted willows and sedges and then we did some electrofishing, which is where you put in an electric current into the water and that stuns the fish, it doesn't kill them. But then we were pulling out, selectively, we're pulling out some of the brook trout and we ate those for dinner. But so under a permit from Parks and Wildlife, you can't just go—
Katie
I was just going to say, is that legal take?
Andrew
No, you can't just go buy an electrofisher and go shop dinner. This is something that was in conjunction with Parks and Wildlife. They were aware of it. So we're taking those fish out and sort of salvage them for a purpose instead of just throwing them away. That's why we're eating them. but not legal to go out and throw electricity into a river
Katie
just to get dinner. Take that out of my Amazon cart.
Andrew
Yeah.
Katie
Back to the standard rod and reel.
Andrew
Well, yeah, the good thing is electro fishers aren't cheap so it's not easy to just go buy one and do it.
Katie
That's pretty cool that the, you said that one of the projects is like kind of over near the Lake Fork area, right? Near Blue Mesa.
Andrew
Yeah, and that's the, So with the money that we raise, we try to target the money towards the watershed. So like the money that was raised in the Middle Creek event, we're trying to put towards projects that benefit fish that are native to the same watersheds that the Middle Creek is in. So that's the Rio Grande Cutthroat Trout watershed, greater watershed, and versus the Lake Fork, which the native fish in the Lake Fork area is the Colorado River cutthroat trout. So the barrier project happens to be in very close proximity to the Lake Fork of the Gunnison, but in reality, we're just trying to keep the money that was raised with a given event for the subspecies that's native to the watershed that that event takes place in. And same goes with one of our other programs, which is called the Rare Fish, Rare Beer Project, where we're making, we're partnering with local breweries to make beers that celebrate the fish that are native to the watersheds that those breweries reside in. So I think we're on volume seven now, but we've made several Rio Grande cutthroat trout beers with a brewery in Del Norte, Colorado called Three Barrel Brewing. And so a portion of the money that is raised with this beer goes back towards projects that benefit the fish that the beer celebrates. So it's been a ton of fun doing it. We basically turned the whole creative process over to the brewery. Their label makers make up a label inspired by the fish and we've got a lot of cool beers and labels that have come out of it. We actually even made a whiskey with Denver-based Law's Whiskey House that was called Nativa. It was kind of a generic cutthroat trout celebration and that raised almost $10,000 for projects that part of which will be spent this summer in that Sand Creek Watershed Reclamation Project. So yeah, so we're trying to focus on the watersheds where the activities are taking place and focus on the natives within them.
Katie
That actually kind of leads me into something I wanted to ask later, but it makes more sense right now, is whether this project would expand ever, do you think beyond trout to other native fish? Like I'm a big whitefish fan. I know a lot of people think that they're trash fish, but I have a ton of fun catching them. And I always get a little upset when people value like browns and rainbows up here, but whitefish are native here. I was just wondering if you'd ever consider expanding beyond trout to other types of fish.
Andrew
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think particularly with the Rare Fish, Rare Beer project, we've already talked to Three Barrel about doing a Rio Grande Chub beer. The thing about trout is because they're a sport fish and they're a really pretty fish, which is not to say that some of these small-bodied native fish aren't beautiful and they're own right but people most people know what a trout is. Fewer people know what a chub is or a sucker is and and from a conservation standpoint some of those those species are even in worse shape than some of the trout species and so you're absolutely right there there's a need for for protection and and habitat projects benefiting those organisms as well and so we have actually talked about doing a chub or a sucker beer, but from the Flyathlon standpoint, it's a little bit more difficult because it is an angling-focused event. I suppose we could use money from those races to benefit non-trout native fish, but because it is an angling event, the money that has been raised through those has gone towards trout projects to date.
Katie
Mm-hmm. I mean that makes that makes sense. I was just wondering if if I heard other things down the road
Andrew
Yeah, man suckers need love too.
Katie
I wonder how many people would buy a sucker beer.
Andrew
So what we try to do I didn't mention that with the labels so that the art is inspired You know inspired by the fish and done by the the breweries artists, but we try to have we try to use it as an educational vehicle as well. So there's always a little blurb on these labels that talks about why this fish is important. And in fact, we're making right now we're making a brown trout beer here in Denver that'll be out within the next couple weeks. And of course brown trout are not native to Colorado. They're native to Europe. But the beer that we're making is a Pilsner, which is a German style beer. And so on the label it talks about how the German Pilsner and the German brown trout are both imports from Europe, and they're great and fun to fish for, but they're not native and so this beer is actually raising money for greenback cutthroat trout.
Katie
Just a bit sad.
Andrew
Yeah. Well, I think people understand and are familiar with brown trout, and so if you can use a it and then they read the label and they're like, "What the heck is the green dot cut through a trout and why am I giving money to it?" Then they do a little research and they figure out that it's this beautiful fish that you can catch in Colorado too. A little trickery I guess, but it's going to be a delicious beer and particularly a delicious summer beer in a pilsner.
Katie
To be fair, I'm assuming that most anglers out here, even if they value native species more, probably aren't wanting to get rid of all the brown trout fishing there is out here either. No, nor am I.
Andrew
I think the 12 to 15% versus the habitat that's occupied by non-natives in brown and rainbow and brook trout, if we could get that balance closer to the 30% native trout versus, you know, there's some watersheds and these big river systems that, like the Blue River and, you know, all the big ones that show up on the big board in fly shops, those are heavily managed and they're unlikely to be all native fisheries any time ever in the future. So I think to imagine those as all native fisheries is probably naive, but there are great opportunities to move the needle on native fisheries without jeopardizing any of those great sport fisheries that we have in the state. So I think it's, in my mind, it's just a better balance between the two, such that whatever we face in the future, those natives are set up for success versus being in this marginal habitat that they're at real risk of not being around in the future.
Katie
Yeah, and I think you could even make the argument that having a couple of those larger rivers just be for the kind of trophy browns and rainbows might be kind of good in the long run, just because if they're not going to support native fish species as much, then let them just grow trophy fish for people to catch. And I think that'd kind of open up more small areas that would be able to hold native populations and just kind of keep them separated.
Andrew
Totally, and I think angling is a sport, right? And to have areas where it's managed, but it's achieving its goal of people coming in to the state or being living in this state and going out and enjoying themselves, angling on a managed fishery, that's part of the goal and that's part of why parks and wildlife exists. And the conservation piece, not all of these fisheries are naturally reproducing, nor do they contain native fish. And so that's part of what they do. And I think that's perfectly acceptable. It's just, can we get to a place where we've got a better balance of these healthy reproducing native fisheries that are doing well on their own don't need the heavy management to persist so then they can focus again on those sport fisheries where there's a lot more pressure. And maybe some of that pressure that's focused on those managed resources is not then exerted on some of these more sensitive native populations.
Katie
For sure. It keeps people kind of isolated or concentrated, I guess, in certain areas instead of just spreading out and covering the whole state.
Andrew
Yep. But, but I would, I would still encourage people to, uh, think beyond the big board at the, at the fly shop. Um, there are all sorts of fishable waters in the state and, you know, just, just get, get, get the, uh, Delorme book of maps and, and find a trail that's got a blue line running next to it and go explore it because, um, a lot of these have great little brook trout fisheries or native cutthroat fisheries. And it's a hell of a lot more fun to go explore those than to just drive up and throw on waders. And that's my personal feeling.
Katie
Oh, I agree.
Andrew
There's a whole big state to explore. Why be combat fishing next to somebody?
Katie
I actually, I've never fished Deckers, Cheeseman, or the Dreamstream. And I kind of want to go, but I also kind of want to see how long I can go without, just to see how long I can make it.
Andrew
Yeah, they have their, they have their merits. I've fished several of the few you mentioned and not more than once though. I just don't, I don't enjoy the, you know, the combat fishing that you can get sometimes where you're, I like the solitude of being way back and not necessarily all by myself, but pretty isolated. And that's when I feel most alive is when I'm out really remote and wet waiting so I can feel the river on my legs. And I always struggle with waders, although being a biologist for the government and doing electrofishing, I need waders in certain circumstances and I understand their value and utility in those circumstances. I think a big part of fishing should be to experience being in that element. What are the fish experiencing? If it's too cold, stand on a rock.
Katie
Yeah, especially in those smaller mountain streams, you're probably not even standing higher than your ankle deep anyway.
Andrew
Right, and if you do it long enough the nerve endings in your feet die anyway, you can't feel it. So It's a win-win
Katie
so in your work, does that overlap with Flyathlon projects at all or you can are they completely isolated from one another?
Andrew
Yeah, they're they're completely completely isolated so It's the reason my my leave balance at work is so low is because any anything Flyathlon related I'm doing on my own time. And certainly there's contacts that I've developed professionally over the years that I utilize to make the impact with running rivers and the Flyathlon. But by design, I mean, I can't use my position in the government to advance the running rivers and I don't want to. So I spend a lot of nights and weekends working on this stuff. And certainly it's not just me. When we created Running Rivers, we have a board of-there's nine of us. And so I get a lot of help from my board members and volunteers in pulling these things off every year. And people keep showing up to help me out. So apparently I haven't pissed him off enough yet.
Katie
Going back to what you said about, um, how, when you're looking to fish, you kind of just pick a trail that's got a blue line next to it and, and head out. I, we should have probably gone over this toward the beginning about what actually goes on during a given race. We kind of talked about the history of the Flyathon and the fundraising part, but do you just want to, you know, do a, an elevator pitch for what would a day of racing would be like?
Andrew
Sure, so, well, to start the race, we sacrifice a shitty domestic beer to the beer gods. It started out, the first event, I tried to shoot a beer with my buddies, 357, and I totally missed, and everyone was scared. And because I missed, they made me shotgun this thing, which was a, like, drink shotgun it, which it was this Bud Light Lime-A-Rita, and I had to drink it. And so the next year I brought in the hired guns in my daughter's and Red Rider BB rifles. And so that's how we start every race, is by shooting a crappy domestic beer. And then the only rules are you have to complete the course. So in both the Middle Creek and Lake Fork Flyathlon case, It's an out and back. There's a long course on the Middle Creek that adds a loop. But really, you have to go check in with my neighbor, who's at the top, with a bottle of whiskey. I didn't say that, but if you're looking for whiskey, it's at the top. And you have to run the entire course, and you can break off and fish at any point. So if you're fast, you're running by all this habitat or potential places you could fish before anybody else. and you're faced with the tough decision of when do you break off and start fishing, because then everyone behind you goes past you and then gets to see all the habitat that comes after that before you. So it's kind of this, this head game of when do you, when do you break off and fish, do you run the whole thing and fish at the very end? Do you fish right away and then just, uh, get out the run. So, um, and then when you, when you catch a fish, we've got a, uh, 11 by 17 sheet of right in the rain paper that has all our sponsors' logos on it, your name, and a 17-inch ruler. And you take a picture of your fish on the ruler, and then you get to show one picture at the finish line after you've completed everything, and your time is adjusted by the size and species of the fish with a double bonus for the native fish. And there are only cutthroat trout in the Middle Creek race. no cutthroat in the in the Lake Fork race. So there's no, no, no bonuses in the Lake Fork, but it's funny. Cause, uh, that, that bonus has been the difference between, uh, winners and losers in the middle Creek race. Yeah. Last, last year, uh, my neighbor who's at the top, his wife was running it and she was super fast and she came across super fast with, uh, with like a six inch Brook trout. And she just sat there sweating bullets, like freaking out someone else was going to come across with a bigger fish that was a cutthroat trout. And sure enough, like seven minutes later, the next fastest gal rolled in and showed a picture of like a eight or nine inch cutthroat trout. And my neighbor lost because she had an inferior fish, even even though she was seven minutes faster. She was secretly very bitter, but understands. It's stupid, but in some ways, that, in people's mind, elevates the cutthroat trout to a level where they may put more value on that fish because of that silly rule that we have. Because it is that native, and we're telling them it has more value, even if that more value It's just a bigger deduction in a ridiculous race. So that's in a nutshell how it works. And then we go back after the race. We've got areas where everybody camps and we've got a couple of great restaurants from Colorado Springs that cater the event. And so that night, if there's no fire ban, we have a fire and everybody sits around and tells fish stories. We give out awards. We have a BB rifle shootout for the ultimate grand prize after a elimination round that involves cornhole and horseshoes in the Middle Creek race, too. We have some horseshoes. So it's all in good fun. And I think people enjoy the after party more than just about anything.
Katie
Yeah, you know what I've noticed running this-so I think I've run this race two or three times now. And I've run a handful of other races, although I don't consider myself a runner. But the feeling I get in the Flyathlon is different from other races in that I definitely want to win, and if I see someone who's ahead of me who I know has caught a fish, I am a little stressed, I want to get ahead of that person. But at the same time, I'm also very happy when I hear people have caught fish, and people tend to stop and talk to each other. When they're passing each other, people will stop and ask, "What'd you catch?" people share information like where to go or what flies are working. It's kind of a competitive but at the same time a little bit cooperative race, which is just different from any other race I've run before.
Andrew
Yeah, it's by design. Fishing, you're kind of, fly fishing, you're kind of discouraged from running up on someone and or creeping up on them on their hull and asking them what they're fishing. kind of bad fly fishing etiquette, but in this race, I think people are under that pressure of trying to catch a fish in as short a period of time as they can. It opens up that line of communication. If you see someone running by who's been successful, you want to know what they were fishing because you're trying to get into a fish as fast as possible. I think most people that are involved in this race are in it for the right reasons and share formation instead of just holding it to themselves so they can win. You're right. Most people are are trying to help people be successful in the fishing component in particular and in past years, unfortunately, our fish whisperer who sits by the river and is available for people to if they are struggling fishing, Ben's there to come up and you can come up to Ben and ask Ben to help you be successful fishing. Ben is a miracle worker. He's an ex-fly fishing guide, but also just an incredibly fishy person. Over the years, I can't even imagine how many people have gone to Ben to get help catching a fish. And so that's kind of the spirit of it is that cooperative, collaborative, we want people to be successful because there's nothing worse than trying to fish and failing at it. But even then, you're motivated because in both of these areas, there are plenty of fish there. And so you're seeing fish and you're seeing fish chasing your flies. So even if you don't catch and land a fish, chances are you'll hook one and then you'll be motivated to come back on your own or at the event the next year and try to be successful even if you don't land one in the first try. But unfortunately, Ben has just had another kid and so he's gonna be out for the events this year. So people are on their own. You're on your own this year, people.
Katie
So-I'm curious if the stats will change. Be forewarned. I know Ben helped me catch a fish my, I think, first race. It was-I know a lot of people had trouble that race. And I could not, for the life of me, even get one to take my fly. And then I talked to him for two minutes. And he told me what kind of water they were in. And within five minutes, I had one on. Right. He's definitely helpful. He's truly,
Andrew
truly gifted. It's no fun to fish with him outside of the Flyathlon context because he'll pull 30 fish out of the same hole that you caught nothing out of so he's kind of an asshole in that way but you know he's just he's very very talented fly fisherman and a great person
Katie
yeah he's always a sweetheart and he always remembers me from previous years which I'm always really surprised about and I imagine that he's that way with pretty much all the racers he is everyone's everyone's buddy we
Andrew
worked together for for a bit in the government He's one of the brightest people I know and one of the funniest and most thoughtful. And now he's at home with the little ones. So everyone, wish Ben luck.
Katie
How much did the Flyathlon change between the very first informal one you guys ran and what it is now? Was it basically the exact same thing back then? I assume there's probably a little bit more beer drinking during the race.
Andrew
Yeah, well the first one we made all the, the unofficial one, we made all the mistakes. So one of our beer sponsors, the longest running beer sponsor is Elevation Beer Company out of Poncha Springs and they gave us a five gallon keg for that first one which was unofficial and was only like ten of us.
Katie
They donated it to you guys?
Andrew
Yes, I believe so. It's six years ago, but I may have bought it, but I'm pretty sure they donated it. We drank it on Saturday night and then held the event Sunday morning. I remember just being in a real bad place trying to start this race. All I was thinking is just get these people going so you can lay down for a little while. I learned from that and switched the event to Saturday and then the after party to Saturday night, which most people would have figured out on their own the first time. But anyway, I learned from that and there have been a handful of things that we've learned from over the years. I'd say it's a much better, well-oiled machine now six years in, and it's a lot easier for us to put on. There's always a lot of anxiety associated with it on my part, just because you are putting that many people out in the woods. We've got a safety plan and we've got all the safety features that we would need in case of an accident. We've been lucky, knock on wood, that nothing real bad has happened. We've had the occasional... We had a guy with a fly in his calf and he ran the last four miles of the race with like a, like a size 10 Elk hair Katis in his calf. And then he came across the finish line and we had some laws whiskey. And fortunately one of our. Fly athletes wife is a nurse. And so she was able to get this thing out with minimal bleeding and screaming. But, um, so we've had a few incidents over the years, but, um, I think we're, we're in a much better position now to, to deal with something in the, in the event that it happens. In fact, the Middle Creek race is held near the town of Saguache and Del Norte. And we've made some, we reach out to the local hospital every year and tell them that we're having an event so that they have, you know, like rattlesnake, anti-venom and ready in case someone rolls in from our event. But some of these communities are pretty small towns and they don't have a whole lot going on. And so, I think it was two years ago, the ambulance crew from Swatch came and they were just parked at the starting line waiting in case something happened. And of course, nothing happened and it was great to have them there and meet them. And then last year, I think my dad, who's a retired pediatrician, he organizes this stuff with the local hospitals, but they wanted to have a helicopter parked at the starting line. it's a little bit of overkill.
Katie
What's someone going to do? I mean, maybe break a leg.
Andrew
There's no room for a helicopter at the start line because we've got all these cars rolling into a remote forest service trailhead. But the enthusiasm of the local communities is well appreciated on that front. But it's pretty much stayed the same over the years. We've added things here and there and there may be a few twists this year as well but you know if it if it isn't broke don't fix it right
Katie
right and you have a kids flyathlon going on this year right or is it next year?
Andrew
We did we we had it it was the beginning of June and it was it was our definitely a trial run it was at Staunton State Park which which is in the like Conifer, Bailey area. Great state park by the way, for those runners out there. And there's also some good fishing in there, but it's a two mile run for the kids and halfway into the run, there's these stock ponds where we had probably about 20 volunteers waiting for the kids to roll in. And we had fly rods set up, we had spin rods set up, We had rods with power bait on them set up. We were ready for anything. And these fish had been stocked the day before and earlier in the week too. So there were fish everywhere, but stockers aren't always cooperative. And so the hour leading up to the kids actually showing up and wanting to catch fish, we were all trying to fish it and figure out what they were taking and no one was taking anything. And so there was this huge cloud of stress over everyone. And then our partners in the event, Mountain Goat Kids, which they put on trail running events for kids. My friend Heath, who runs that, he radioed into me. He's like, "They're coming." And we're all panicked. And as soon as the first wave of 25 kids rolled in, and not just like, these aren't like eight to 13 year olds. There were like some four year olds in the mix.
Katie
What was the age range?
Andrew
I think he capped it at the low end at four and the upper end was 13. So this is a wide range of skill levels in terms of just being able to move your arms and legs. So anyway, they showed up and Fish started to cooperate. And I'd say at the end of it, we probably had over half of the kids had, in air quotes, caught fish. We caught a lot of them and then let the kids reel them in. But man, it was great to see some of our longtime Flyathlon participants showed up to volunteer. And one guy in particular, Bert, I've got a great picture of him with this kid who's He's got to be like five years old and the kid's got the biggest smile on his face and he's got this rainbow trout that literally was on a truck the day before. But he doesn't know that and both of them just have these great big grins on their face. And so it was great. We'll adjust some things for next year and probably have fewer kids and maybe bump the lower age limit up a little bit and more volunteers. So if people want to be a part of that and probably reach out to some sponsors and try to make a bigger deal of it. It was kind of under the radar this year because it was a test balloon. But I think for me, it's really important to get youth out and psyched about being outside, whether it's trail running or fly fishing or both, instead of being in front of their iPads. And I think the more people we can get interested in these things, the better off we are for the future in protecting these places. So that's the goal on my end. And it's fun to see kids catch fish.
Katie
And I'm sure it's nice for, especially for the parents who maybe run the regular Flyathlon wanna get their kids into it, but they don't wanna be those parents that are gonna make their kid fish have the kid rebel, or just because the parents are teaching them, and kind of give the kids their own way into the activity that doesn't involve fishing with their parents.
Andrew
So we had a good number of past fly athletes brought their kids to this. And they were running with their kids. And that was a load off my mind with them rolling in. And we just handed them a rod. And then they were fishing with their kids. So it was an opportunity for them to be involved with their kids in this pseudo competitive situation. And I think that was fun for a lot of people too to run it as a family. But, and then of course I neglected to mention because it is run fish beer, we had root beer floats at the end, local ice cream and local root beer sponsor gave us all this stuff to have root beer floats at the end. And so the state park loved it, the parents loved it, kids loved it. So we'll likely do it again next June. But the goal is to get through this season. Our last event is the Lake Fork at the end of September. And then we'll get together as a board and we'll figure out what's next. I've got a couple other ideas, but see what everyone's bandwidth is for ramping up again for next year.
Katie
So did the Middle Creek already happen this year or is that upcoming?
Andrew
No, it's August 10th. So we're a couple of weeks out. So we're in the scrambling around. I just picked up a bunch of beer from a great brewery in Denver called Cerebral.
Katie
Oh yeah, we've been there.
Andrew
Yeah, and they gave us a bunch of beer and they're super big fans of what we're doing and I'm a super big fan of their beer. It's a match made in heaven. Assuming the beer makes it to the event. It's in my fridge right now. I'll just have to show some restraint.
Katie
Just seal it in a box that unlocks the day of the race.
Andrew
Or not. You got to make sure it's not poison.
Katie
Right. Got to test it out.
Andrew
That's right.
Katie
What's the Troutman?
Andrew
So the Troutman is an unofficial ultra distance, and by ultra, the technical definition of an ultra running race is just more than a marathon. So it's not a 100 mile race 'cause I'm not crazy, but the Troutman involves a, it's approximately 30 miles, but anything over than 26 miles counts. You got to catch all four trout species, brook, brown, rainbow, and cutthroat trout, and then drink a 12% or greater beer in under 12 hours. And then we've got, if you're able to do that successfully, we've got a local incredible metal artist who makes us these big, gigantic, ridiculous trout belt buckles that if you're successful in doing that you get one of these trout man belt buckles and the official title of trout man or trout woman we don't have a trout woman yet so you know once the flood heals up consider it.
Katie
Is that like an honor system raceor is that an actual organized event?
Andrew
It's both.
Katie
Okay.
Andrew
So the official challenge is open to anyone who wants to string together a course that that covers you that 26 plus miles and has all four fish. We do one down in the Weminuche Wilderness between, well, I won't say exactly where it is, but it's, you know, there are probably 10 of us that are gonna try it this year. We were gonna do it this last weekend, but as many of the listeners may know, Colorado had an epic snowpack this year. There were a ton of avalanches that wiped out and buried a bunch of trails with avalanche debris. So decided that, oh, and river crossings in mid-July this year were just dangerous. So we pushed it to mid-October. So that's the plan right now is to try to do the Troutman after we've completed our Flyathlon season and just get out. And it's really informal, ton of fun. Only three of us, we did it two years ago and three of us were successful in finding all four fish and getting in under 12 hours. And interestingly, the brook trout two years ago was the hard fish to find, which for anglers in Colorado, they'll know that that's kind of a rarity in those high mountain streams to not be able to find a brook trout, but that was the struggle that day, but three of us made it happen. And so there's three official trout men out there, but my hope is that there will be more after this year. Whether I'll be able to repeat or not remains to be seen because I'm closing in on 45, and it's not as easy to go that distance as it was even a couple years ago.
Katie
So is the fishing usually the limitation or the distance? I assume the beer usually isn't the limitation.
Andrew
No, although you'd be surprised after exercising for almost 12 hours to try to drink a 12% beer is you want to be sitting down. That's the message that I would communicate is make sure you're sitting down after doing that. But the fishing is a challenge more in the selection of the course because finding all four fish in a, even within that 30 mile reach is sometimes challenging because they don't occupy the same habitat, the rainbow and brown trout are bigger water fish and so anyway, it picking the right course is a challenge but then actually finding them all when you're out there and under the gun is interesting as well. And then for safety reasons we ask people to make sure they're not out this on their own. So then you're relying on your partner who you're out there with also catching those same four different fish species. So that adds an element of potential frustration with your buddy. If you've landed all your fish and he can't find them. But it's a ton of fun. And I'm looking forward to it again this year.
Katie
So it sounds like there's a course that you guys do, kind of an informal gathering race, but someone could come up with their own course and also achieve the same feat. But you just happen to have a course that you've tried and tested out. Yeah.
Andrew
Yeah, yeah. So I have a map problem. I have got all the National Geographic Illustrated trail maps. And so this kind of stuff just fascinates me, looking at maps and trying to imagine courses where I could get all four and get a great run in as well. And so I think there's a handful of places in Colorado where the trout man is achievable, but we've only done it in the one. Thought about making it an official event. The real challenge is to find a course that long where you can catch all four fish that doesn't go through wilderness because competitive events are not permittable in wilderness. So we couldn't have an official event if it went through wilderness.
Katie
So how do you go about finding the Flyathlon courses? I know there's only a couple of them, but what criteria were you looking for apart from there needs to be basically a trail along a stream that has fish in it?
Andrew
That's pretty much-well, having camping close by, having a trailhead that has good parking. It's the quality of the fishing. So you want people to be successful. Certainly with the Middle Creek race, that's the primary reason that that fishery was selected is because it's in the middle of nowhere. No one really knows where this thing is. but I knew it from doing research at my job. And it's a really super fishy place where people have a great chance of being successful. And so I think that's one of the primary things is a trail that has enough access to the creek so that there are lots of opportunities for people to just break off instead of a handful where you're then cramming 60 people into one mile of river if the trail only comes close for one mile of the course. So it's really proximity to the creek, not a lot of road crossings. I mean, every road crossing you have, you have to have some volunteer there staffing it. So try to get it in the middle of nowhere. And as I mentioned earlier, our goal is to have people come and stay and so far enough away from an urban center that they're gonna just make a weekend out of it instead of trying to come for the morning and then drive home. Yeah. Did
Katie
you have a lot of places that fit the bill or was it like these are the only two or three places that we can even find?
Andrew
No, I think there's a lot of good public water with, again, the wilderness limitation does eliminate a lot of really good-there's countless trails that run right next to rivers that go into wilderness. And that's the great thing is once you start running and running with your fly rod, the world's your oyster. There's all sorts of great places to go. But in terms of places where we could actually hold an event, These are the two in Colorado that we've landed on. I've explored other courses in other states as we contemplate taking this to other parts of the country. And it's relatively easy to find something that at least on paper looks like it might work. And that's where in the future, I'm hoping with Running Rivers, as I mentioned, it's all volunteer right now. our long-term goal as a board is to find the resources through foundations or whatever to hire a part-time or full-time executive director to help take the concept to new places and expand what we're doing and maybe take over some of the on-the-ground conservation work as well. So right now, as I mentioned, we're heavily reliant on our partner, our conservation partner organizations get the projects done on the ground, but there's no reason why we couldn't do a lot of that work ourselves as a as a nonprofit. We just need to have someone with the time and someone who's getting paid to to spend all day working on this stuff as opposed to just nights and weekends. So that's the we've as a nonprofit, we've started to write our first five year strategic plan and it involves at some point in that five years, actually hiring someone to take on a lot of the day to day and expand the impact of what we're doing, because there's a there's been a ton of interest from other states and, hey, can we do this in Maine or can we do this in Wyoming? And the answer is yes, but not without significant help on the ground. And either that help comes from our organization in the form of an executive director or we're heavily reliant on people on the ground in those places driving the bus, which is how it's worked in Iowa. We've got a great group of locals in Iowa who have just taken the idea and made it their own. And so now, like I went out one year for the Iowa race and this year it's the same weekend as the Lake Fork race. So we'll be doing that and they'll be doing the Driftless area Flyathlon and they can manage it all by themselves. It's not rocket science, but I'm glad to see them taking it and running with
Katie
it. For sure. Well, I've had you on here for about an hour, so we can start to wrap things up, but do you want to tell people where they can find you or where they can find more information about the Flyathlon and how to contribute or volunteer if they want to?
Andrew
Sure, sure. Our website is just runningrivers.org and the Flyathlon is one of the programs that's up there as well as the Rare Fish Rare Beer. Reach out. My email is super simple. It's cutthroat@gmail.com, like the fish. If it's something that appeals to any of your listeners, feel free to give them my information. We can always use people out helping to volunteer on projects or at events or participants for future years. Both events are full at this point for 2019, but we'll have those two events and maybe more next year. It just depends on the the bandwidth of the board and what anyone's got going on in their life at any given time. But no, it's a ton of fun and we'd love to have anyone out to join us and really just interested in pushing native trout and conservation and really the idea that we've got a ton of people who like to recreate in these places. And that's part of the reason people move to Colorado and move to the West is to take advantage of these great natural resources that are in close proximity to places like Denver. But the more people that come, the more we need people that are going to stand up and be a part of taking care of those places, both through their dollars and Certainly fishing licenses and paying for fishing licenses is a first step, but you know the flyathon has really been great in empowering people to go beyond that and really step up and raise resources that will go directly towards keeping these places awesome. So we like to talk about turning people into public land owners instead of just public land users and I think dollars that are coming to federal agencies that manage these places are dwindling and the pressure's increasing. So, if we don't stand up and take care of these places, we're going to lose some of them.
Katie
For sure. I would highly encourage anyone to go ahead and sign up for one of these races when it opens up next year because I've done it two or three years now and it's always one of my favorite weekends of the, I guess, months of the fall. But just a great time with great people and fishing and drinking and fires. It's just an all-around good time for a whole weekend.
Andrew
Well, and it's one of our favorite weekends too because you're there.
Katie
Thanks, Andrew.
Andrew
Yeah, you bet. We'll see you in September.
Katie
All right, sounds good. Take care. Thanks for coming on.
Outro
All right, and that'll do it for episode number one of the Fish Untamed podcast. If you liked what you heard, I would love for you to go subscribe and get future episodes delivered right to you. It's not under the Fish Untamed podcast right now though, if you're typing that in. It's under the Wild Initiative podcast. That's the network I'm under. So go ahead and subscribe to the Wild Initiative and you'll get all my episodes as well as all of Sam's other episodes on that stream. And in the meantime, also go check out fishuntamed.com. All my episodes will be listed there as well as weekly articles about backcountry fly fishing and all kinds of other little tidbits. So go ahead and head over there and if you're looking for me on social media it's just under Fish Untamed on Instagram and then just under my name Katie Burgert on GoWild. Those are really the only two I'm on but I'm assuming quite a few people who listen to this will be on at least one of those. So go check me out there and I will be posting updates on both of those platforms. So until then, have a good one.
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