Ep 29: Streamers and Mice, with Jason Rieke
Jason Rieke is an engineering student turned trout bum. He spends his summers guiding in the Rockies, and when he’s not with clients, he’s most likely fishing himself. Because of the sheer amount of time he spends on the water, Jason’s become skilled in a wide variety of tactics, but his go-to flies are streamers. As someone who has relatively little experience fishing streamers, I was eager to pick Jason’s brain about how he has such consistent success with them. Toward the end, we also get into mousing at night for large fish, something he does frequently during the summer. If bigger, bulkier flies are a bit outside your comfort zone, this is the episode for you.
Instagram: @jrieke21
Blog: www.trouttravels.com
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. All right, welcome to episode number 29 of the Fish Untamed podcast. Today I sat down with a buddy of mine, Jason, to talk all things streamer fishing. Jason fishes streamers more than probably anybody else I know. And not only does he catch some big fish on them, but he'll also throw smaller streamers for things like brook trout and other small stream fish. So he's got a pretty well-rounded skill set when it comes to him. It's just his preferred way of fishing. So he's gotten really experienced in lots of different situations, lots of different species and lots of different techniques. And although I fish streamers occasionally, I definitely wouldn't call myself very experienced in streamer fishing. I've had success with a handful of techniques and I tend to stick to those. And so it's a little bit outside my wheelhouse, which is why I wanted to talk to Jason, because I knew I could pick his brain on all kinds of different situations and scenarios and he'd have an answer for every single one. And we also got into mousing a little bit at the end, which is another kind of facet of fly fishing that I've participated in a handful of times, but again, I would not call myself very experienced at all. And Jason is pretty experienced in this world as well. So if you're like me and feel really comfortable with dry and nip fishing, but maybe you feel a little bit outside your comfort zone with something like streamers, I think you'll find a lot of value in this episode. hopefully come away feeling a little more equipped to maybe give these techniques a try next time you go out. So that said, we can jump right in. I'm not going to bring it up because you said not to, but I do want to quickly ask. I think it's hilarious that you requested not to talk about Tenkara.
Jason
Yeah, well I couldn't think of anything else to like not want to talk about. I'm like, well I don't really like Tenkara, so.
Katie
Well, I have that in there. I mean, like, you know, for that as well. But normally, it's like, I'm talking to someone who works at a company, it's like, they don't want to talk about their competitors. Or, you know, like, if we're talking about some sort of conservation issue, and they're like, "Hey, we don't want to get political," or something like that. I just think it's funny that you're like, "Yeah, screw Tenkara. I don't want to talk about it." Just,
Jason
yeah, I'm going to stay on that hill. More, more, more just being phony.
Katie
Well, I figured we could talk about Tenkara the whole time today if that's okay with you.
Jason
Oh, well, I might sign off.
Katie
Tenkara streamer fishing.
Jason
Yeah, well, actually people do that. I don't know why they would, but yeah.
Katie
To each their own. So I didn't realize until I was looking at that form you filled out that you'd only been fly fishing for five years. I kind of assume that was like something you grew up with.
Jason
No, I mean, I grew up spin fishing and spin fishing for trout too for like, three, four years and really got into that and then transitioned over to fly fishing. It's kind of a newer thing still.
Katie
What caused you to make the transition?
Jason
I built the fly rod back in high school and my first year in college I hadn't really used it much. I had started trout fishing quite a bit and thought I'd give it a shot. I thought the challenge would be pretty fun. I've seen it a lot on the internet and I used to follow a lot of blogs and stuff. Kind of looking up on tactics people are using in my area in Minnesota and just reading up on stuff like that. I saw a lot of guys that are fly fishing and I thought it looked pretty cool.
Katie
So you already built a rod before you even knew how to use it?
Jason
Yep. It took me a year to use it.
Katie
I've heard a couple people with stories like that. Either they built a rod or they tied flies or something and then they're just like, "Well, I should probably pick this up if I'm gonna be doing the arts and crafts portion of it."
Jason
Yep, yep. You should probably try it. I don't know. I had a class my senior year. It was like an outdoor rec class and rod building was a part of it. I decided to build a fly rod and be the only kid to do that. Just do something different. That was kind of a part of it. Getting myself to pick it up and actually use it was another battle.
Katie
That's hilarious because I feel like you you fish more than most people I know. Like by a significant margin.
Jason
Yeah. Yeah. I think I do too. It's uh especially being here in Rochester it's kind of nice. I can I can go as much as I want really.
Katie
Now did you go that much before you picked up fly fishing or was that something that like spurred something in you where you're like I gotta do this all the time once you switched over?
Jason
Um more which more meant you know maybe once a week or you know a couple times a week and then I think it wasn't until I had been fly-fishing for like you know probably saw a year that I started really stepping it up and you know going two three four times a week.
Katie
Which is hilarious because most people would say that once a week is like quite a bit. You know like most people aren’t doing once a week they might be doing once a month or something like that and when I do it once a week I'm like I'm doing well I keep it up with it.
Jason
Going out quite a bit. Yeah, I think about that too. And it's like, you know, some of these, some of these old timers that have been fishing for like 50 years and, you know, maybe going a few times a summer or whatever, it's like, I've, I've probably already seen as much as they've seen in just a couple of years or just cause I go like every day.
Katie
I feel like it's the same with skiing. People are like, I've been skiing for 20 years and it's like the one, like long weekend they take every year to go skiing. It's like, well, yeah, I mean, you've done a total of like 30 days over the, over the course of 20 years, but. You know?
Jason
Yep. Tough to compare.
Katie
Yeah, I know. So were you like into streamers that much from the moment you started? Was that something that caught your attention or is that more of a recent thing?
Jason
It kind of started my attention from the get-go. The first fish I ever caught in a fly rod was on a Wooly Bugger but that's a lot of people too. So I wouldn't say like initially it was like all streamers like gung-ho on streamers. I definitely got into nymphing too just because it is a little bit easier to kind of figure that out as well. But yeah again after probably about a year of fly fishing I found a streamer pattern that I tried out and really ended up liking fishing quite a bit and I saw how I started catching bigger fish and just saw kind of the aggressive nature of trout and really enjoyed that. And then it just kind of went from there and now, now it's what I do, you know, almost all the time, unless like circumstances say that I shouldn't, but.
Katie
Yeah, I was going to ask like what it is about streamers, but is that still it? The, you just like the aggressive takes and kind of triggering that like predatory instinct versus kind of a more passive approach that I feel like you could argue a, like a dry fly or nymph is.
Jason
Yeah, yeah I'd say it's that and just if you're targeting bigger fish you know maybe not on like a tailwater in Colorado but for the most part you know bigger fly bigger fish and you kind of get to a point in fly fishing where you know I mean not getting sick of little fish but you start seeing a lot of people catch bigger fish and yeah it's definitely a really good really good fly or you know way to fly fish that you can target bigger fish and have a higher chance in my opinion of bigger fish. But yeah, the, you know, the aggressive strike part of it too is, is really cool, especially when it's really visual.
Katie
Well, it's funny you say that because I don't want to diminish any of the fish you catch, obviously, cause you're catching way more fish than, than I am. But like you catch a lot of small fish on streamers too, like shockingly small for what you're throwing sometimes. I think it's kind of fun. Like you'll, you'll show a fish that has a streamer, like half the size of it hanging out of its mouth. it's, it's going to be kind of fun in itself. Just seeing, seeing the really confident little fish going after something that they clearly can't eat.
Jason
Oh yeah. Well, I think most people don't think a trout is being as aggressive as they are. Um, you know, I was out yesterday and I was throwing a, probably a four inch fly and I caught a couple of fish that were like eight to 10 inches. And you just wouldn't think a fish that size would go after a fly. That's literally half its size. Um, and I've had it even, you know, like throwing an eight inch fly and catching like a 10 inch fish. So they, they're, they're a really aggressive fish and I don't know if it's always that they're eating or if it's just like kind of an aggression thing, but yeah, it's, it's crazy what those little trout will do.
Katie
Do you ever, uh, throw like, so I know you like, well, I guess I'll start there. Do you like using streamers, um, just for the sake of it? Or do you usually think that it's actually the best approach? Like if you went somewhere and the, like the clear, the clear best approach would be to throw a nymph or a dry fly. Would you still choose the streamer just for the experience of it or do you choose what's best and it just so happens that where you're fishing usually a streamer is kind of the best choice?
Jason
I think it really depends on the water. I brought the example of fishing tailwaters in Colorado or Montana or whatever. Those can be really picky fish and fish that see a lot of flies and a lot of times streamers wouldn't be the best thing there and I probably wouldn't go out there and throw streamers. You know maybe if I was fishing in like the morning or like evening kind of low light conditions but overall I'd say I definitely try streamers out a lot of times at new places that I've never been to and just kind of seeing if maybe that would be the best thing for the day there and then switching up to like nymphing or throwing dries after that. If you would ask me that question before I ever came out to Colorado I would be just throwing streamers no matter what.
Katie
Would you opt to go somewhere else if the option were there to like go somewhere else where you could throw streamers more effectively or fish a tailwater? Would you be like I'll just pass in the tailwater?
Jason
Yeah, I'd probably just pass in the tailwater. Leave the crowds and go chuck some meat around.
Katie
That's fair.
Jason
Sounds fun.
Katie
I was going next with that question was if you're if you're somewhere that has mostly small fish like you know there's always there's always the chance that some larger fish is hiding in a hole somewhere but you know you kind of know the general size of what you're fishing for when you're out especially in like the smaller streams. Do you size down kind of match the fish or do you keep do you keep the streamer like optimistically large in hopes that you catch like the one large fish that's in there?
Jason
I think that you know really depends again especially on conditions. So you know if you're fishing a stream you know bright sunny day or something like that I'm probably not gonna be throwing streamers for little fish. If the fish are you know if it's low light or you know cloudy or whatever and it's like a good streamer day I'd throw a smaller streamer just because it's again it's fun to fish with you can cover a lot of water, see a lot of different country, especially if it's like a new creek or something like that. Here in Minnesota and the Driftless, we have a lot of really small trout streams that have scary big fish in some of the little tiny creeks. You kind of wean through the small fish and pick out maybe the one big fish a day that you wouldn't catch if you're just nipping or something because that fish is gonna be bit more aggressive if you're still throwing like a bigger pattern.
Katie
Sure. So what do you consider like a good streamer day? Conditions wise?
Jason
Conditions wise probably like an overcast day. Usually fishing it morning or evening. Midday is a little bit tougher but yeah overcast if the water has a little bit of stain to it that always helps and you know kind of the spring or fall is is a really good like streamer time to even if conditions are really good. Sometimes in the summer or winter it can be a little tougher. The overcast a little bit of staying to the water is usually a good good combination for a good streamer day.
Katie
What's the theory behind the overcast day?
Jason
So I think the theory behind that is trout get more confident when they have a little bit more a more overhead cover. On a bright sunny day I feel like trout just you know it's easier to see trout so predators are you know they can be easily more easily spotted by predators so they're not quite as aggressive they're kind of hanging lower in the water column unless you know there's some kind of hatch going on so on an overcast day fish are more willing to chase flies and kind of more willing to come out of their hiding spots.
Katie
Okay what about color like do you I think I saw you post something a back about how you don't, well at least for that time, you didn't follow like the no white streamers, no white flies rule and you were catching fish on it. What's your color plan when it comes to choosing what color you're using?
Jason
A lot of times I like throwing kind of like a lighter scheme streamer like midday when it's a little bit brighter out and then darker when it's more low light conditions but kind of like that one day it's all over the place. Like that day I was not expecting to do well on like a white streamer but fish were just all over it a lot more than a darker streamer and it was like it was kind of one of those like streamer overcast kind of days that I was expecting like a big black or brown fly would work super well but white was doing it. So you know there's kind of the the rules where it's like you know like I a white fly on a bright day and like a dark fly on a dark day. But I honestly, it, some days you could throw anything out there and they'll eat it other days you could throw anything and they won't touch it. And it's all over the place. You just kind of got to experiment and yeah.
Katie
Yeah. I feel like that's been coming up recently that, um, like fish don't read the rule book. There, there's so many people out there who are like, Oh, you can never use this. You can never use that. Or that won't work. And it's like, well, that's odd because I tried that and it worked. You know, it might not be the best situation all the time, or there might general rules of thumb that are our rules of thumb for a reason but I feel like there's very few things in fishing that can be said with definite certainty and that's one of them.
Jason
Yeah it's tough to have those set rules because like you said fish will break those rules. Right. Yeah.
Katie
Do you ever dead drift your streamers? Like what techniques are you usually swinging them? Are you dead drifting them? What are you doing?
Jason
So that can come down to kind of conditions, time of day, seasons. So like dead drifting streamers I'll do that a lot in the winter when fish are a little bit more lethargic.
Katie
Is that under an indicator?
Jason
No, usually just you know I'm just kind of throwing a floating line and casting upstream and kind of using the end of my fly line almost as an indicator and you actually see it like shoot forward when a fish will take it. Yep, so that'd be yeah that'd be one time that I would like dead drift a streamer. A lot of times when I'm dead drifting it I'm getting a little twitches too. Just give it a little bit of life. And then like right now in Minnesota it's like spring stuff's warming up and you know there's days when you can't cast and strip the fly and fasten off the fish you're just right on top of it. So that's you know kind of a total different approach than the dead drift. But a lot of times when I'm like you know going out for a day I kind of try a variety of stuff like when I'm when I'm first starting fishing and usually there's there's one you know one way of presenting the fly to the fish that seems to work really well that day and then you kind of stick with that and things might change throughout the day too but yeah kind of figuring out that that presentation and it can change day to day like one day you know again like as fast as you can. The other day, you know, he's got a dead drifted put it right in front of your face.
Katie
Sure, that seems like the name of the game, really is. I mean, just be adaptable. When you're dead drifting, are you usually using like an unweighted streamer to keep it from just like diving straight to the bottom and bouncing off the rocks or would you use the same thing that you'd use on any other like swinging or stripping?
Jason
Probably use the same thing or actually something weighted even more.
Katie
Oh really?
Jason
Yeah, because kind of like I said like in the winter when fish are a little more lethargic they're kind of sitting in the deep holes and a lot of times they're sitting really close to the bottom so you want to you want to dead drift a streamer as close to the fish as you can.
Katie
So you're pretty much bouncing it on the bottom?
Jason
Yep.
Katie
Okay.
Jason
Down at the bottom or right near the bottom.
Katie
Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, I guess I was just picturing you know getting hung up there with enough weight but I guess as long as you don't actually get hung up on a log or anything and probably just bounce along and and look vulnerable.
Jason
Yep and you know it's not a bad thing if you are hanging up on the bottom because that's where the fish are kind of like with nymphing but some of my some of my favorite streamers they're kind of more of a jig streamer so that the hook faces up so they will bounce off a lot a lot more than you know a different streamer that has the hook facing down. They tend to snag up a lot more.
Katie
What jig streamers are you using?
Jason
So my favorite one is called a Frick's Fix. It's kind of a local Minnesota fly that was tied up by a guy. It's basically a way bugger tied on a jig hook with really heavy dumbbell eyes in front.
Katie
Is that what you mentioned the other day?
Jason
Probably, yeah. I've been tying up a ton of them for people and I'm using a ton of them myself. Yeah, it's just a beefed up, beefed up bully bugger with like some silly legs coming off the sides and a lot of flash. But I think the jig nature of it really helps it out a lot, like get down and just jigging motion for a lot of trout. I feel like they don't see that a whole lot most flies. It really triggers an aggressive strike.
Katie
Are you still using a lot of like the basics like woolly buggers and stuff like that?
Jason
Not really. No, I probably haven't thrown a woolly bugger in a couple years. Nothing against them. They work super well. I just think some of the patterns that I've been using are just a little bit added to a woolly bugger. You can go out and throw a woolly bugger any day and probably do pretty well. But I'm looking for something probably a little bit bigger, a little bit flashier, something looks like, you know, maybe some legs put in there. Just giving it more of a profile, giving it some more life to it.
Katie
Okay, so when you're going out, how do you determine what it is you're gonna use that day? 'Cause for example, if you're either nymphing or using dry flies, you're trying to match something pretty specific. Even if you don't know exactly what's hatching or something like that, And you can at least say, OK, well, this time of year, BWOs might be coming off. So I'll throw a BWO nymph on there or something. There's some sort of logic when you're pulling your flies out. But unless you're fishing somewhere where you're saying, OK, there's a ton of sculpins here, so I'm going to put a sculpin on. What's directing you when you're choosing what type of stream you're going to throw on?
Jason
Yeah, I definitely would say forage base of the stream river that you're fishing that can dictate the size, the color, and kind of the motion of the streamer you're looking for, but also like you know what the body of water is like. So you know if it's a really big wide river I'm looking for something that's gonna be kind of swimming more than jigging. Then if it's like a tight like deep river I want something that's gonna get down really fast. So I'd be looking for more of like a jiggy type streamer.
Katie
So on the, I assume, at least most of what I see fishing is is fairly small water I'd say. Is that is that accurate?
Jason
Yeah, so right now in Minnesota and you know kind of the Midwest it's a lot of smaller creeks. It's a lot of a lot of small creeks that have like big plunge pools. So like the water goes from you know being like two feet wide and kind of fast riffly to like a pool that's maybe 10 feet wide and like four feet deep. So those transition zones is what I'm trying to hit a lot and that's why I kind of like throwing like that jig streamer to get down really fast because those a lot of times the big fish is going to be sitting right up at the head of the pool where the fast water's coming in. So yeah, pretty small water.
Katie
OK, yeah, that was going to be my next question, is in those smaller creeks, are you kind of doing the equivalent of almost like streamer dapping, where you're just kind of throwing it down and then jingling it up and down right in front of you, since I feel like most of what I see fishing is not large enough that I would expect a long cast and a long drift or anything like that.
Jason
Yeah, so I definitely do that, too. Almost like high sticking a nymph, you can high stick a streamer through a spot and just kind of jig it through, especially heavier flies. If you can get to the spot and not spook the fish or if it's low light conditions. A lot of times they're crystal clear creeks so the water is running gin clear. You got to make a cast from even 10-15 feet away. You still got to cast it instead of really high stick jig it. But yeah, another one of my favorite ways to fish like a streamer is I have an 11-foot rod, 11-foot 3-weight. So it's a little bit lighter. It's got a nice light tip, but it has a pretty heavy butt section to it. And with that, I can really high stick a nib through a run or through a deep spot.
Katie
Okay. That makes sense. And so is that your go-to for, like, what's your go-to rod for the different types of water you fish? something like a small creek versus out here when you're fishing the Colorado a lot like what what's your setup like?
Jason
So like small creeks usually like a 9 foot 5 weight. Throwing with like a usually with the floating line and then out west it's like it was a big wide river I like throwing a 7 weight with the sinking line and throwing some you know you can kind of throw either like a kind of a a midway sinking fly with a with a sinking line so the line actually takes it down or you can throw a floating line and throw a jigging fly but in sections where you know these big rivers are really deep where it's like faster currents in deep water I like actually throwing that that 11 foot three weight and letting the letting the fly sink really deep and then kind of either stripping them through or jigging them through.
Katie
Now are you using a full sinking line in that situation or a sink tip?
Jason
With the seven weight, usually a sink tip. I don't know, unless you're like in a drift boat, it's kind of tough to throw like a full sinking line in my opinion. It just brings the flies so deep, which is good for certain applications. But then with my three weight, I'm just throwing, I'm usually pretty long leader on that. I got like a 12 to 14 foot leader and I'm letting the flies sink really deep.
Katie
What's the reasoning behind the long leader?
Jason
So with the long rod having a long leader again allows those flies to sink really deep. So if you you're thinking about trying to get deep with a sinking line the sinking line itself is a bigger diameter than a tippet is. So in a fast river it's going to be tougher for it to actually you know use its weight to get down because the water is going to be pulling it through. But if you have just like a pretty small tippet like I'll throw streamers on like a you know 3-4X tippet and that just sinks right through the water cuts right through the water and then the water pushing through doesn't like grab it quite as much and pull it so you can actually get it deeper using and that than the full sink line.
Katie
OK. Yeah, that makes sense. I guess most of the- I don't fish a ton of big water usually. So I've usually used a fairly short leader on my streamers. But that's mostly just because I'm fishing smaller creeks. And I'm not even using a sink tip line. I'm just throwing out my floating line the same way I would with any other fly. And I've had decent luck with that. But I don't actually fish many streamers. You're actually the, you're probably the most streamer guy I know. Me and most of my friends don't, don't use it too much, but.
Jason
It's a good thing to add to the arsenal, you know, try it out every now and then, and you'd be surprised.
Katie
I mean, so I've, I've really enjoyed what I've done. And I think the reasoning behind that is that like, when I got started in just like spin fishing, I really liked the idea of pulling something back in and having the fish pull back when it takes it like growing up. I never, I never had much experience like setting the hook because the fish who'd always set the hook on themselves. I was like fishing for smallmouth bass on a lure. I'm pulling one way, they grab it and run the other way. There's no need to set the hook. And I really like that more active, I guess, engagement with the fish. And I never really was drawn to like a worm on a bobber. But with fly fishing, I like that there's, even with drives and nymphs, there's more of an active participation in it. 'Cause you're still, you know, working the line and things like that. But I would like to get better at streamers, just to go back to that kind of basic, you're just being a bait fish to the water and a fish is gonna chase it down and eat it. Like it seems like a very, I don't know. I don't mean basic in a bad way, but basic, just you're getting back down to the fundamentals of watching a fish chase down something through predatory instinct.
Jason
Exactly. Yeah, no, and I mean, with the streamer, you're like, you're working it. Like everything you're doing with your hands, like really you know is shown in the fly itself and then when you get that connection with the fish you know you get that pull back a lot more than you do if you just like kind of watch an indicator rig you're watching a drag it's pretty cool I think it's almost like an easier way to jump from like for like a spin fisherman to jump in the fly fishing would be to start throwing some streamers because it's pretty similar to like you know throwing a little spinner
Katie
Yeah, it kind of makes sense. I think the act of throwing something out and even though you're probably using your hands in the case of fly fishing, like really it back in that's a very easily explained idea. Like you're taking this, this, you know, for lack of a better word, bait, you know, it's not bait, but throwing the bait out and you're pulling it back in the fish are eating it versus trying to explain to somebody why the dry fly has to be dead drifted and it can't sink down or it might they might not want it it's it's a more of a foreign concept I think to switch to something like nymphs or dries which are pretty different from most things you're gonna be doing with a spin rod but a streamer is kind of that halfway point of you're doing the same thing but you happen to be pulling it with your hand and instead of a reel or you know
Jason
yeah yeah like you said a lot more active and you know you're the one kind of giving it that motion and stuff instead of like a dry flyer and nymph it's like, "Oh, cast it out there and then he's gonna watch it." Right. "And mend your line." Yeah.
Katie
When you're using your seven weight, is that for the size of the fish or the size of the fly that the reasoning behind that?
Jason
Usually the size of the fish and the size of like the river I'm fishing.
Katie
Okay.
Jason
So, throwing like a, you know, even like I got like a 15-foot sink tip line with a four or five inch fly. Sometimes I'll even put a split shot in front of the fly just to get it down that much. But that's a pretty big rig to throw on a five weight or something smaller than a seven weight. And then the fish themselves, dealing with an 18 plus inch fish, that'll put up a good fight. It's a little bit easier to bring them in without pulling them out too much
Katie
And where on the tippet are you putting your split shot? How far up from the fly?
Jason
I usually put it pretty close, maybe two, three inches above the fly. I've read a lot of different stuff about how you're supposed to put it no less than a foot in front of the fly or whatever. I don't know, I'm kind of... If I put a split shot on there and it slides all the way down to the knot, I'm not usually too worried about it. It might make the motion look a little bit different, but a lot of times those Fisher, you know, they're so aggressive. They're, they don't really care. What's what's out in front of it. You're already using a 15 pound tippet and big ugly fly. Anyways,
Katie
that's another one of those things that I feel like people act like they are the gatekeeper to like where you can put a split shot. And, uh, like I've, I've seen people scoff at the idea of using a split shot on like a dry dropper and I use split shot nearly every time I use a dry dropper. I'm like, well, I want to get my nymph down. I'm just going to use a bigger dry to keep it up. So that's another one of those things I think people make rules about. And I'm like, if the fish is scared off by a split shot, I'm pretty sure it would've been scared off by the hook hanging out of the fly's butt and the thick butt section of tippet in the fly line that's floating right in front of your fly.
Jason
Yep, and my terrible cast.
Katie
Right, all the other things I'm doing wrong. But then it sees a split shot, it's like, nope, that's the deal breaker right there.
Jason
Yep. I don't think it usually happens like that.
Katie
No. What are your thoughts on the idea of streamer season? Because I know you mentioned that you do use them or you like using them more in the spring and fall. But you also use them year-round.
Jason
Yeah. There's "streamer season" quote-unquote.
Katie
How much weight do you put into that? Into the idea that there's a season for streamers?
Jason
I think you definitely notice that you either have more fish active on streamers or you catch more fish on streamers, you know, kind of that spring/fall time. But there's always, you know, the random days in the summer and random days in the winter when you just have phenomenal streamer days that are just as good if not better than the days you have in the fall and spring and vice versa. So, you know, rules are meant to be broken. I think any day you go out there could be a really good streamer day and for me personally, almost every day I'm out I'm definitely at least trying streamers. I've kind of gotten to the point where now I kind of use more of everything but there was a time when all I ever threw was streamers and I don't know, doing that I hardly got skunked. At least some fish were still active on a streamer even on like a sunny day when they shouldn't work that well.
Katie
Do you fish them a little differently during quote-unquote streamer season? Just like because you know the fish are supposed to be a little bit more aggressive? I assume that that's a little bit different than if you're trying them in the winter.
Jason
Yeah, I think it depends. I think in the fall I like to size up on my streamers just because the fish, they're really packing on the food either before spawn or you know before it starts getting too cold and stuff like that. In the spring it seems more like they're really just aggressive on a streamer and I'll throw kind of a like a medium-sized streamer. It seems like the big streamers don't work quite as well in the spring so there's that and then like winter kind of anything goes. Some days they want something really big some days it's something small when when they are active on them. So…
Katie
yeah that's fair. In the spring is that the idea that they don't want larger streamers is that just because it's they're kind of coming out of that lethargic state from the winter and they're just not fully ramped up yet versus the fall where they're coming out of summer and the water is finally starting to cool down and they're you know they're eager to feed before winter sets in? Is that the behind that?
Jason
It could be. I really don't know, honestly. It's just something I've noticed and I've talked to other guys and they've said kind of the same thing. Usually, that smaller to medium size streamer in the spring seems to work a little bit better than the big meaty stuff.
Katie
I like things like that where you don't really know. I mean, I do like knowing why things happen. I like feeling in control but I also like the idea of just knowing something because you've experimented with it enough. I kind of feel that way about when I'm trying to explain to someone what like fishy water is and it's like something's really easy to explain you can be like there's a seam right there or like right after this riffle there's a nice deep run and so there's gonna be a fish sitting in there but sometimes you just see an area you're like there's a fish there and I don't really know why but I know there is and it's just like a really satisfying feeling to be like the only reason I know this is because I've done this hundreds of times and you know, gotten this under my belt. I just really like that. It's like a very wholesome feeling.
Jason
Yeah, it doesn't really need a reason. It's just the way it is.
Katie
Yeah, there's some things that are just like better left-hand. No, I don't want to have to have like a logical explanation behind everything.
Jason
Yep, yep, exactly.
Katie
I feel the same way about purple flies. I really like using purple flies and I like nothing that I've ever seen in nature is purple, but they seem to like it. I like that about them.
Jason
Yeah, I've heard people say, "Oh, it's in the UV spectrum" or something like that, but it just works.
Katie
Stop ruining it.
Jason
Yeah, rules are meant to be broken.
Katie
So I saw that you also wanted to talk about mousing, which I'm totally down to talk about because that's another thing. I have even less experience mousing than I do throwing streamers.
Jason
Have you ever moused?
Katie
I have moused like twice I think and neither was a proper a proper session you know at night in a like a meadow creek. It's it's been in uh ponds in the middle of the day. Um okay I think I've gotten like one or two strikes but it just like hasn't hasn't come up for me. Um I think where where I am compared to where I'd want to go mousing just hasn't been ideal and I haven't made the effort to go do it and I think I want to have somebody go with me to do it for the first time. So, I'm for the first proper time. So, I'm not just out there flailing around.
Jason
Makes you feel safer too at night in the mountains.
Katie
Yeah, I should have gotten it out of my system when I was up in Estes because that's probably the ideal time. Do you get to do it much?
Jason
Um yeah I haven't been doing it too much right now. Kind of mouse and time starts when the water starts warming up a little bit and you know there's not really snow on the ground. I did actually go uh about a week ago and it was okay. I had two fish on, landed one. Two beavers scared the crap out of me and kind of ruined a couple of the holes I was looking to fish.
Katie
Were they slapping with their tails?
Jason
Slapping with their tails yeah. Especially in the one spot I really wanted to go I'd spent quite a bit of time like kind of sneaking in. So the moon was out and I didn't want to like make my reflection or anything. And then I get down there and just, bam, that tail slap. It's like, Oh, it is. Oh, middle of the night when it's super quiet. And then all of a sudden that goes off. Yeah, it's a little freaky.
Katie
A quick tangent for you. Uh, when I was in, I guess it was my freshman year college. Uh, when I was on break, I did, I came up with this, um, trip where I was going to paddle way upstream from where I normally, uh, kayak downstream. And I was going to just camp out on an Island. I didn't have a tent or anything. I was just going to make a bed of ferns and just sleep there on the Island until the next morning, I was going to come back and I did that. And I built this little fire and I fell asleep next to it on a bed of ferns. And in the middle of the night, a beaver slapped its tail right next to where I was sleeping. And I would, I thought a bear was like coming through the, through the water toward me. And I was freaking out. I was like running around this Island in the middle of the middle of the night. I had nothing with me. And I finally shined my flashlight out and just see this beaver staring at me. And I had never even known that that was a thing that they do. So I didn't understand where the sound was coming from, because I hadn't seen it slap its tail down. But since then, I've heard it a couple other times. And now I'm like, I know what this is. But it's really freaky when you've never had it happen before.
Jason
Oh yeah, I mean, it sounds like a gunshot or someone just threw a rock in the water or something like that. Yeah.
Katie
But anyway. - It's freaky. (laughing) Anyway, you can continue with your story.
Jason
Yeah, but other than that, usually midsummer, like June, July is kind of what most people think about is the best time for mousing. And that's probably when I like to go out, too. It's a fun way to kind of add something new to fly fishing. It's a big challenge, because you're going out there in the middle of night. Usually the best nights are the darkest nights. So then you have even less coordination and you're kind of using all your senses because your eyes are very compromised. But yeah, it's just a lot of fun. Takes some practice to kind of get your casting down and you kind of need to know the spot you're going to a little bit in order to do okay there, kind of safety wise and just knowing where you can and where you shouldn't cast as far as like casting lanes and the water itself.
Katie
What are you looking for when you're looking for an appropriate place to go mousing? Because I usually think of just like meadow streams with some undercut banks that can hold larger fish that might not come out during the day. But what are you looking for and how do you know like this is a good spot to throw one?
Jason
Yeah, well, definitely those meadow streams just because- I mean, walking around during the daytime, you see mice kind of scurrying around all over the place. So obviously, you know, a big brown would come up and eat one of those. A lot of times, you know, in the Midwest here, I'm kind of looking for big pools, looking for big fish as well. A lot of times in some of these smaller streams, like a big fish might only have an area of, you know, like a 50 yard stretch of stream, and that fish isn't gonna go too far he's probably not going to eat too much or he's going to be really tough to catch during the daytime. So you can actually find a specific fish and then go fish for him when he's more apt to take a bigger presentation or big browns like to feed at night. So going for him at mousing at night can be a good way to catch some big fish that you see during the daytime that you can't catch otherwise. But yeah, looking for meadows, looking for big deep pools and looking for big fish specifically.
Katie
So are you finding these big fish before you go? Like are you are you verifying this creek holds big fish and I've seen them there or if everything else is right are you kind of hoping that there is a big fish lurking in there even if you maybe haven't seen them come out during the day?
Jason
Definitely a little bit of both. You know obviously when you're when you're fishing especially streamer fishing you're gonna see a lot more big fish I feel like because you're gonna draw fish out but then you know kind of you can make a mental note of that. Make a mental note of you know oh he was in this pool you know next to this big tree or something like that. But yeah even if you're not seeing big fish though you know looking for those you know deep water cover you know like cut banks and stuff like that. Those are all really good things that you can you know think about when you're looking for a spot to go mousing. I've definitely moused places that I haven't fished before and done okay. It's surprising. When you're mousing you wouldn't think you'd be catching a lot of small fish but just like streamer fish you'll catch some really tiny fish that are just like overly aggressive and hit a mouse on the surface.
Katie
It ain't my day!
Jason
Yep, exactly.
Katie
Walk me through the process. Are you using a headlamp at night on a red setting or are you just going blind? If either one, how are you setting the hook? Are you just listening for it?
Jason
Yeah, so I usually try not to use any light as much as possible. Once I leave the car I have a headlamp on in case something freaks me out or if I do hook a fish and I'm trying to net them. But when I'm fishing I try not to have any light. I've read different things that you know having a red light is not a bad thing, stuff like that. I don't know I don't really have experience either way just because I just don't use any light at all. And then when I am fishing it a lot of times you hear a lot more the takes than you actually feel them because a fish will come up and like swipe at a mouse and miss but you'll just hear a big splash like where or you think your fly should be. But usually when the fish hits and you feel it that's when they kind of make better contact and then you know setting the hook I'm not trying to like you know set it back like I'm setting with a nymph or a dry fly. I'm trying to do a strip set with that fly to make sure I'm sticking them straight and not pulling the mouse out Cause they'll, they'll come back, um, more than once a lot of times. So you're like, you know, maybe the first time you'll hear them come up and smack at it and miss, then you keep stripping it and then all of a sudden they'll come up and hit it again. And that time you'll feel them and you can get a good hook set on them.
Katie
Okay. And are you, are you stripping it in from the start too? Are you kind of giving it some motion as it, as it flows down or are you stripping it and letting it sit for a bit or are you just dead drifting it? Or is it a little bit of everything?
Jason
Yeah, it's kind of like shrimp fishing. It's a little bit of everything. And, you know, some nights, again, you can strip it back as fast as you want. And sometimes they're just smacking at it other nights, you know, really just letting that fly swing through. But I'd say what I've found the most success with, I'm usually fishing downstream. And then I'm casting, quartering to like the opposite bank. And then mending my line upstream a little bit. So water isn't really like taking it down as much and then I'm just kind of letting it swing and strip and just like little strips until it gets up to the the bank on your side and it's crazy you never really want to pull it out too early because a lot of the hits you'll get will be like right at your feet right on the side of the bank you know I don't know if they think the mouse is kind of swam across and he's about to scurry up back on the land or something but a lot times it'll hit it like right at your feet.
Katie
Yeah. Almost like a pike or something.
Jason
Exactly. Right at the boat.
Katie
Little bass figure eight.
Jason
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Katie
Do you do much pike fishing up there?
Jason
Um, yeah. Yeah, quite a bit. I've been getting more into it on the fly. Especially since it's something I can't do out in Colorado and anytime I'm back here it's a lot of fun to do. Pike and musky.
Katie
Oh yeah. Okay, so you caught a musky, was it this past year? Was that your first one?
Jason
Uh, that was my second one.
Katie
Oh, really? Okay. I see.
Jason
Yeah. Right before I went to Colorado, my first summer, which would have been, would have been three years ago now, or two years ago. Um, I caught, I caught one right before coming out to Colorado and then this past fall, um, caught one in October.
Katie
I know this wasn't on our, uh, on our agenda, but what, what was the process like? I think I saw you trying to fish for him for a while. That was a goal of yours. You were going out every day trying to get one. What was the process like? Was it really the fish of 10,000 casts?
Jason
Yeah, it was probably up there. If it wasn't 10,000 it was close. Where I'm from in Rochester, Minnesota, there isn't really too much musky water here. I was actually going to Wisconsin and and floating with one of my friends. We were floating kind of a medium-sized river out there. But I think that was our fourth float, probably four to six hour floats. So yeah, I think, man, it was almost like a full day's worth of actually fishing hours-wise before we landed that one. And that was the first one out of the two of us that we landed.
Katie
Did you hook any others?
Jason
I think my friend got a hook into one, but he didn't really have it on. Yeah, so caught a couple pike and some smallmouth in that time frame. But other than that, we moved maybe five, six fish. So a lot of casting and a lot of not catching fish. But it's so much fun.
Katie
Yeah. What were you using that you were catching, pike and smallmouth. Was this while you were muskie fishing with the same flies that you were using?
Jason
Yep, same flies. So you're out there throwing a 10 to 11 weight with a full sinking line and throwing big deer spun head flies that are anywhere from like 8 to 12, 14 inches long. And yeah, you'll get every now and then you'll get your aggressive smallmouth that I come at it, but more often than even the muskie, you'll get some pike. It's always kind of frustrating because they look so similar, but after you get it on, you kind of know pretty quick that it's a pike. It's like, "Oh, man." Because you're just looking for that muskie, and when it's a pike, it's almost a little bit of a disappointment.
Katie
I've only landed one muskie, and I wasn't fishing for muskie. I was fishing for smallmouth. But it was a different experience than a pike and that it was jumpy. Like it, it was coming out of the water pretty often. I've never had a pike jump. Um, so that was quite the experience, but that was just on spin gear, you know, accident bike by catch, even though it was super exciting, but I think it'd be fun to do on a fly. I just don't, I don't want to say I don't have the patience for it, but especially around here, I don't see myself giving up. What's probably going to be an entire summer to try to catch a muskie in Colorado.
Jason
Yeah. Yeah, they're definitely there, but yeah, they're a tough fish to catch. Yeah. I've heard the ones in Colorado are pretty tough too. I've never personally tried, but yeah, there's not that many. They're kind of in specific places and then, yeah, they're just a wary fish in general.
Katie
Yeah.
Jason
Yeah.
Katie
Do you think that's something that you'll like truly get into? Or was that more of a, like, I want to do this, you know, in this specific time period and then I'm going to give that up and go back to what I normally do.
Jason
No, I think that's what I'm really gonna get into.
Katie
Really?
Jason
Yeah.
Katie
You're gonna give up the trout?
Jason
Yeah, yep. My game plan is to kind of live in the Midwest and add a lot more warm water species to my fly fishing. You know, what I'm kind of going after. And muskie is top of the list. It's a lot of fun and you know kind of like catching like a you know 25 inch brown trout that's like catching a 40 inch musky or something like that. Just a really tough catch or tough fish to catch. Um, but yeah, I can see myself really getting into it.
Katie
That's one of my biggest complaints about Colorado and don't get me wrong. I know it's a, it's a great place to, to enjoy fishing, but it is kind of a monoculture of trout. You know, there's places down here that have warm water fish, but a lot of it seems kind of artificial. A lot of it's just stocked, you know, stocked fish in the ponds near nearby. And that's one thing I really miss about back yeast. And it sounds like where you are too is there's just a lot more variety out there.
Jason
Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, Colorado is basically just trout, especially in the mountains.
Katie
Yeah, if you want to catch a satisfying wild fish, it's probably going to be a trout.
Jason
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that's-- in the Midwest, it's so cool because we got a driftless area, which is tons of spring-fed trout creeks and some rivers. And that's really cool. but we got the whole warm water side of it too, where you can drive another 20 minutes and then you're on the Mississippi River, which has, I mean, it's like 170 different fish species. And it's awesome for bass and pike and all that kind of stuff. And then drive a little bit further, some musky rivers and really cool, like small mouth rivers and stuff like that. Yeah, a lot of variety, again, a lot more like Colorado where it's like, pretty much just trout and then some ponds have your warm water fish.
Katie
Yeah. There's just something that's not as appealing about being like a city park. Like I can go five minutes from home and catch panfish and bass, which don't get me wrong. I really enjoy doing that, but there's just something different about being in a city park that has benches and goose poop everywhere versus being out in the middle of nowhere, which is why I feel like it's more of a trout state here because that's, that's where you can catch trout is in those beautiful places. So it's like, well, I'll take that. I don't care what I’m catching, I’ll take that any day. But it would be nice to have more variety. So are you planning on staying in that area for the foreseeable future apart from your next summer out here?
Jason
Yeah, yeah I do. Like we were talking about earlier, I plan to do one more summer in Colorado and then moving back to Minnesota. I have an engineering degree so that's what I plan on getting an engineering job here hopefully. Again, depending on what the economy is doing. I can see myself settling down in Minnesota. I love the state here. Such a diversity of fisheries and other things to do. It doesn't quite have mountains but I think I can go with having the valleys down here and then the North Woods and have mountains when I take a trip out west.
Katie
you think I don't know if you have talked to everybody yet but what's the upcoming summer look like with the whole coronavirus going on?
Jason
Yeah, it's you know where it sounds like we're going full steam ahead. We actually just had a zoom call two days ago with with Joe and the whole crew. It was pretty fun but yeah I mean it sounds like it's definitely slower already like we don't have the reservations filling out like they normally do. I think instead of like 20 we have like, you know, less than 10 or something like that right now. So it'll definitely be slower and I'm okay with that because I'd rather be out there fishing anyways.
Katie
The beauty of a summer job, it's not, it's not your full-time job that you're using to feed yourself. I always remember that like if, if someone wouldn't show up for a trip, I'd be like, well, you know, that's okay. I'll just go fishing.
Jason
Yep. Yep.
Katie
That's such a unique thing with Sasquatch too. It's, it's, yeah, Yeah, when it's just a summer gig, it's just kind of a treat and it's, it's also a treat if the trip doesn't go out and you can just go fishing.
Jason
Exactly. Yup. And, uh, you know, kind of thinking, you know, as like a last summer, um, having a slower summer wouldn't be too bad. Cause I got, I got a lot of, a lot of stuff planned for this summer. A lot of, a lot of fishing destinations.
Katie
Care to share any? Non-specific? What are your plans?
Jason
Yeah, so non-specifically, I kind of broke out more into doing a lot of the alpine lakes and I got some more on my list inside of Rocky Mountain National Park and outside of that. It's really cool hiking back to those lakes.
Katie
We should talk because I've got a couple on my list too. Maybe we can...
Jason
You got a couple?
Katie
Yeah, maybe we can double up some and do a couple trips together or something.
Jason
Sweet, yeah, we're gonna have to do that for sure. Other than that, I spend a lot of time in even further like North Colorado. I really like North Park and kind of the Walden area and then Southern Wyoming too. I think I worked it out with boss man Joe that I'll have like two days off a week back to back so I can easily go drive three, four hours into Wyoming and have some pretty good fishing or go the other way, you know, Southern Colorado too. I did that a couple times last summer and there's some awesome, awesome rivers down there. It's amazing. I just plan on traveling.
Katie
Yeah, as I say, it's amazing how quickly you can get away from the Colorado crowds just by going north or south just off the I-70/285 corridor. You get out of that and suddenly all the crowds that people complain about are just non-existent.
Jason
Exactly. Yeah, if you want to drive a little bit longer, it's totally worth it.
Katie
For sure. Well, do you just want to end by... I don't know if you're still writing on it but are you still active on your blog? If so, do you want to talk about that at all?
Jason
Yeah, so I've been writing a blog for a couple years now called Trout Travels. Definitely had kind of a long dry spree in the middle there but ever since the beginning of this year I've been pretty up-to-date on writing up kind of trip reports like once a week. I like just taking a lot of pictures and you know writing up on how those how those trips went. Almost more for myself just so I can look back on it and you know kind of get a sense of where I was at that time and kind of you know think about what was going on that day and maybe I can go out that maybe that similar time the next year and have similar success. But yeah I'm big into photography. So I take a lot of pictures and put them up on there. And yeah, basically just do trip reports like once a week or once every few weeks.
Katie
Actually, it does remind me of something else I wanted to ask you. Do you have any quick tips? Because for someone who fishes alone a lot, you get some pretty good pictures of you with fish and of just fish themselves. It seems like you've got a photographer following you around. But I know that a lot of the time you're just by yourself. How do you do it? How do you get the photos you get?
Jason
Yeah, I've been asked that quite a bit lately. So I think a couple of the key things is having a nice camera. I mean, honestly, you can take a lot of cool pictures on an iPhone too, but having a DSLR camera is really nice, like a Canon or a Nikon or something like that. You know, it's worth kind of lugging around a bigger camera to get some of these shots. So having a nice camera is a big help and then having a tripod is like crucial I've done it before where you can just set up your camera on a backpack or something like that, but it's really tough to get a stable shot and you really don't want to dunk your camera in the river or lake.
Katie
Especially if you're bringing the nice one.
Jason
Especially if you're bringing the nice one, exactly. But yeah, setting it up on a self-timer and then even just when you're taking the pictures, be really conscious of the fish still. It's cool to get a cool picture, but it's not worth it if you're keeping the fish out water too long or strangling that fish to get the perfect pose or whatever. I have one of the mid-length fish pond nets and anytime I can when I catch a bigger fish I want to get a picture of, I try to push the back end of the net into a bank or something like that and use that net as a live wall. I just have the fish in the water. I get my stuff set up. I try to be as quick as I can. I but you know then set it up so all I have to do is you know click the timer and then lift that fish up get a cool picture get them back in the water you know see what that picture looked like and then let them go. So it takes some practice once you do it a few times though it's pretty seamless and you can get some awesome pictures.
Katie
How does the uh the focusing work with that setup because does it focus on you when you come up to the camera and press the button is it focusing on you one foot away and then you back up and you're out of focus and you just hold the fish up to where it focused. How do you deal with that?
Jason
That's actually even a bigger problem usually especially with the DSLRs. What I like to do is I'll set the focus to a certain spot. Maybe I'll want to focus at the beginning of my net or something something you can pick out pretty easily. So what I'll do is when you when you're setting up the camera if it has like a screen to it you can set the focus to like where your hands at make a mental note of like where that focus is at then you want to hold that fish so usually the fish's face is at that focal point and then it can kind of blur out from there to make a really nice looking kind of composed shot. But yeah that can definitely be one of the bigger issues is getting that focus right with the DSLR. You get a couple of pictures that you're out of focus completely and doesn't look that good. It's like, "Oh, what am I even doing out here?" Again, that just takes some practice. What I tell people is just get out there and take a bunch of pictures. You're only gonna get better if you do it.
Katie
Now, do you actually have a lot of experience changing the settings on the camera or are you just making sure that you get everything else right so then you can just trust the the auto settings and you know even a DSLR on auto is gonna look better than most phone pictures but I know that some people do swear by changing those settings and getting them just right for the lighting that day and things like that do you have any experience with that are you just using auto?
Jason
For the most part I'm using auto I've gone to manual and you know on certain certain applications you can get some really cool shots if you set like the aperture really low so you get that really good blur. But for the most part I'm shooting on auto because it's just kind of automatically changing up the brightness and you know the ISO and stuff like that. I think it usually gets just as good of a picture as you do with manual unless you're looking for something really specific. So especially if you're new to it I just do it in auto.
Katie
I think it's pretty hard to mess up too. I think manual, and I don't actually know anything about photography, like how to do the manual setup, but I feel like that matters more when you're taking some really, really like impressive landscape shots and you're a professional photographer. But at the end of the day, most people looking at fish pictures are gonna be like, "Wow, that's a big fish." They're not gonna care if the settings are just a little bit off or something's a little bad. They're just like, "Wow, that's a big fish." So I doubt many people care. people aren't photographers themselves. Awesome, well is there anything else that you particularly want to chat about? I know we didn't get to talk tenkara but you know there's always next time.
Jason
Yeah we can we can have a full discussion on that again. No not really.
Katie
Awesome
Jason
Just fun talking about streamers.
Katie
Yeah. What was the name of your blog again just so people can find it?
Jason
Yep, so trouttravels.com.
Katie
Perfect. All right, and that is all. As always, if you liked what you heard, I'd love for you to go over to Apple Podcasts or wherever else you listen to podcasts and subscribe there. If you've got a couple extra minutes, a rating or review would also be much appreciated. It doesn't take too long and it makes a big difference on my end. You can also find all my episodes on fishuntamed.com in addition to fly fishing articles every two weeks. And you can find me on social media under my name Katie Burgert on go wild or @fishuntamed on Instagram. I will see you all back here in two weeks. Bye everyone.
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