Ep 40: Getting Kids into the Outdoors, with Tim and Wren Hepworth
Tim Hepworth is known to many by the social media handle @timandwren, that he shares with his daughter, Wren. Tim and Wren, who at the time of recording is five years old, get out on the water together as often as they can. Wren has been fishing for years, and although she sometimes needs help with the finesse of setting the hook or making long casts, she is already a well-rounded angler. She’s a big fan of bugs, boats, and of course, brown trout. In this episode, I talk with Tim about his unexpected journey into fatherhood and what it means to him to spend so much quality time outside with his daughter. We also do a good deal of chatting about how to make the outdoors enjoyable for your own kids. At the end, Wren herself makes a surprise appearance to share some of her favorite parts of fly fishing.
Instagram: @timandwren
Tim’s Instagram: @timothyhepworth
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. Alright, welcome to episode number 40 of the Fish Untamed podcast. My guest today is someone that many of you are probably familiar with if you are on Instagram, and that is Tim Hepworth of Tim and Wren. Tim and Wren are a father-daughter duo who I've been following along with for quite a while now, and it's just been so fun watching them fish together, get outside together, watching Wren's excitement as she catches fish. As you'll hear in the episode, her favorite fish is a brown trout, and she does hop on at the end to remind me of that as well. But this episode is about half and half, hearing from Tim about his journey into fatherhood and what it means to him to spend this time outside with his daughter. And then also a couple tips for getting your own kids into the outdoors, if that's something that you're hoping to do with them. So without further ado, here is my chat with Tim Hepworth. I am sitting down today with Tim Hepworth. How are you today, Tim?
Tim
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.
Katie
Am I correct in thinking that you are in Alberta?
Tim
Yeah, we are located just outside Red Deer, Alberta. So it's kind of central and southern Alberta is where we spend most of our time.
Katie
Okay. Is that a pretty small town?
Tim
Yeah, so Red Deer is about 100,000 people. We're in a town that's just kind of like a bedroom community off of that. It's maybe 3,000 people kind of thing. So we've never been the big city people. We like to be in a little smaller place.
Katie
Yeah, that sounds just about right, kind of having access to the facilities if you need them in town, but kind of being a little bit outside the hustle and bustle.
Tim
Oh, yeah, totally. That's kind of the key thing. My wife works in the city, and I work in a town north of here. So it's a good central location without actually having to be in the city.
Katie
So what do you do for work?
Tim
uh I'm a paramedic actually
Katie
okay and did I see you also guide
Tim
yeah so my my summers are pretty busy I do both my schedule with being a paramedic is pretty awesome so I only work basically because I'm two on two days on four days off so I have two thirds of the year to to do what else I want to so in the guiding season I do take some time off of paramedicine to to guide but most of the time I just guide my four days off from the other job so
Katie
that's pretty nice setup
Tim
yeah it's perfect yeah guiding here isn't not that it's not can't be lucrative but it's we have a fairly short season right so you know you got maybe three or four good months of guiding and outside of that it's not really a viable profession so you kind of got to have something else as well
Katie
sure what are you guiding for mostly trout?
Tim
yeah for the most part trout we dabble a little bit in other things and the shoulder seasons will we will do trips for pike in the spring and okay you know but most of the time it's people are here to fish for trout so yeah
Katie
now are those in uh kind of the same waterways or are you kind of separating, like we're specifically going for pike you know over here and then we go over here for trout
Tim
yeah and most of the time it's pretty specific waterway we do like so our big river here is the bow river in Calgary and that's where I do the majority of my guiding all of our our drift boat stuff happens there and in that There are pike for sure, but we don't really target them in that river for the most part. If we're going to target them, we do it kind of right at ice off right after the spawn for the pike. And we have some pretty awesome pike lakes that are kind of in southern Alberta. And so we spend most of our time if we're targeting that kind of species, we'll head to there.
Katie
Okay. And do you guys have any other species, bass or walleye or anything up there? Are you pretty specific to trout and pike?
Tim
Yeah, no, we do have a fairly diverse ecosystem in the fishery, but we don't have bass here. That's one thing that kind of once you get past, I think maybe Manitoba, there's none out to the west. We do have some now out on the west coast. There's some that have been transplanted in, but here in Alberta, we mostly have trout for the most part is what's targeted by fly fishermen, but we also have walleye. We do have pike. There's like lake white fish a lot of people will target as well. fishing because it can be a lot of fun on the lakes in the summer. We do have something we call burbot, which is kind of like a ling or whatever you want to call it. I've never seen one of those caught on a fly rod, but yeah, we got quite a few different species of fish. We have perch as well, but yeah, not really what people are targeting for the most part on the fly rod.
Katie
Are the burbot just too deep for flies generally? Is that why people don't target them?
Tim
I think for the summer, yeah. So during summer, they're in a lot deeper water. Same thing with the pike why we don't really target them in the middle of the summer in our lakes they're they're in a lot deeper water and same thing with the burbot they're just hanging on the bottom best time to actually catch them is through the ice so ah okay if you're gonna catch them I do it that kind of time of year so
Katie
now it sounds like you said you have a pretty short season so I assume that you've kind of got are we talking like June to august is kind of the main main time frame for guiding and then it's starts to cool off or what's the season like
Tim
yeah so our our guiding season really gets rolling once our runoff is done. So we do have a period of time from about April to the beginning of June, which we'll do some trips. People are really anxious to go in the water and the fishing can be quite good in the spring. But the main time that our guiding season starts is kind of after the runoff, which would be like mid July. And we'll go July, August, September is probably our three busiest months. We do guide into October a bit, but by the end of October, it's it's pretty nippy and the days are quite short not a lot of light so a lot of the floats that we like to do we also couldn't really do in the same time frame because we don't have much daylight so but then after that I mean there's diehards that fish that you like for instance the bow river it doesn't freeze over in the city so the city of Calgary so people will fish it year round but it's not something you'd probably want to pay to do
Katie
sure yeah so the reason I reached out to you is that I don't remember how I came across you but I came across your Instagram account, Tim and Wren. And I was just instantly intrigued because she just reminded me so much of my childhood and just watching you guys fish together. Do you just want to tell me a little bit about kind of your background fishing with her and getting her into the outdoors?
Tim
Yeah, for sure. Well, I kind of, to be honest, I guess you started right at the beginning. I had a fear becoming a father that I was going to lose a lot of the things I like to do, my hunting, fishing, I thought that those would have to kind of be put on hold for quite a while until Wren was of the age where she could figure it out. But I wasn't raised that way. My parents, they dedicated a lot to their kids and we were in the outdoors with them from a very young age. And I wanted the same thing for her. And I also, to be quite honest, to be selfish for myself, I wanted to be out there still doing the things I love to do. So we were probably, she was probably about six months old the first time I took her out and it started with the fishing and we just yeah we really just started spending time together that way it was easy in the beginning because she was younger and didn't move around a lot and she'd sleep on your pack in the pack or whatever but things have just kind of snowballed from there and to be honest she got so she got so excited about the process and loved the fishing loved being out by the water loved the bugs loved all that that I mean now she's the one driving me to get out there all the time with her and I know the summers are harder because I'm busy guiding and she gets a little jealous of me taking other people not her but we get we still get a ton of time together on the on the water and yeah I mean our journey has been I mean I started our Tim and Rand account as not a joke but just as a way of kind of showing our adventures to our friends and family and it really snowballed into kind of what it is today and there's a we really just decided that if we were going to show this stuff to everyone and have it available on the social media platforms which is another conversation all in itself there's bittersweet things about it that we were going to have kind of our why why we wanted to share with everybody and really our goal and our mission through our account and sharing with people is just to show that it can be done not to have fear of having your kids in the outdoors with you and to hopefully inspire a few more parents to do the same and try to be there for anyone at any time when they message and have questions and try to keep it as educational as possible as well as just just show what our adventures look like and it it's honestly had such a good response something we never really expected and it's really been a lot of fun to be honest
Katie
yeah and I think I saw you say something the other day about how you never really expected your life to go in that direction, but it's been a bigger blessing than you could have imagined. Have you found that she kind of picked it up naturally? Were you the one kind of driving her to be in the outdoors and she picked it up or was she kind of like gung-ho from the very beginning?
Tim
Well, I guess from the very beginning, she didn't have a whole lot of say. I just took her with me like she was so young at the start and I just wanted I wanted her out there with me I wanted to be able to not be have to sit at home and but as as the process kind of rolled forward you know she got to about a year a year and a half old and she really started to love it like she loved being out with us she's really grown up with my group of friends on the boats hanging out fishing whatever she's always been with us and I think she I think she was driven to the community that was brought around being in the outdoors because we always have, if it's not, you know, some good friends, it's my dad, it's, you know, people in my life that mean a lot to her as well. And so she, she has this common ground that she can share with them. And the fishing itself is, I mean, she's grown into the last probably two years where she's stoked. Like she loves fishing. She loves brown trout, loves the bugs. She's very excited about getting out fishing. It's always, you know, she's always asking to go. And for me as a dad, I mean, I never knew if I would get to her. I didn't know she would be the one that wanted that. So it's been great, to be honest, it's fulfilling for me as well. And getting to have her with me getting to spend a lot of time with my kid, she's my only kid probably will be my only kid. So there's no there's no bad time with her outdoors. It's all memories made. And, you know, hopefully, we're just starting and she wants to continue doing this with me for a long time.
Katie
yeah, it sounds like it kind of happened. Kind of naturally just, you know, if that's what you know, growing up, then that's what you fall in love with. And hopefully she kind of sticks with that and runs with it herself. Have you found that she, does she have any interest in the outdoors that are not what you would have guessed or have pushed on her? I guess like, you know, have you taken her trout fishing, but then she kind of clung to something in that that was not what you expected where you're like, oh, but we always go for rainbows, but she really loves browns or, you know, something like that.
Tim
Yeah, I don't know why she's absolutely obsessed with brown trout. that one I'm not like I do love catching brown trout but I have an appreciation for all trout in but she for whatever reason she she's absolutely stoked on brown trout and and bugs to be honest I'm not a bug guy she turned me into one from a very young age she would sit on the shoreline and just flip over rocks and she loved finding these bugs she'll hold I mean she would hold anything it doesn't matter how many legs she just doesn't find it like creepy or gross she loves to loves to play with bugs and so she's going to turn me into a geek about bugs which I I never would have been I don't it's certainly not my personality but she yeah I mean she's she's kind of she's got a very interesting character as a person she's a very outgoing person she will talk anybody's ear off I never really thought I mean me and my wife are kind of reserved a little not introverts but we're not like super outgoing she's definitely way more outgoing than we are and she's I mean she has a love for all things outdoors it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be fishing it could be like she loves horse riding she's in horse riding lessons now she loves the thought of maybe one day riding a horse to go somewhere fishing like in her head that's kind of the the ultimate one day so yeah she's she just loves to be out there she loves she loves bird hunting that's one of her I would say outside of fishing is one of her favorite things getting to hunt with with the guys and over our dog that kind of thing and I never knew if that would be something she'd ever want to step into because I mean there's death involved in hunting whereas with fishing we're pretty much strictly catch and release and we pride ourselves in teaching her the proper techniques of doing that as well as understanding why she needs to take care of our trout populations and such so we weren't really sure how the transition to from that to hey let's kill stuff so we can eat it would go but she's she's really jumped on it loving that too so
Katie
yeah I definitely noticed her her outgoing personality I I've she seems to take to the camera very very easily and well like way more than you know you meet kids on the street and they're shy they're hiding behind their parent just not even wanting to say hello to you and I feel like when I see her you know talking to the talking to the camera she's talking like a buddy even though it's probably talking to thousands of people and she's just you know letting everyone know what's going on. I was just very impressed with, with how comfortable she is.
Tim
Yeah, she really, she is like, she's super comfortable in front of the camera. It's, it's gonna, and I think now she kind of understands, like, and we've explained to her exactly what I've explained to you, why we share what we do. And not, there's not, not every day is there a camera in her face. There's lots of days we're out doing stuff that we just don't, we don't, we never want her to feel like her life is just on display for everyone I think there's a there's a fine line in that and my wife and I have had many conversations even really when we started this Tim and Ron account what what are the limits we're comfortable with you know because it's as a parent you're constantly want to protect your child and as fun it is as it is and encouraging to share with people our adventures at times you wonder is it too much or is it is there not enough positive coming out of it to make it worthwhile so it's as a yeah as a parent there's always those choices to make and she I don't think has any grasp at all on that she she just loves the thought of getting to share her her adventures and tell other people all about what she does if you were to walk in the room right now and ask her a question about something she would she would talk you off for 20 minutes letting you know, how the day went or about that story. So yeah, she's pretty comfortable. There's no doubt about that.
Katie
Yeah, I was going to ask, how do you kind of decide where that line is of, you know, I want to, A, share this for people who may have their own kids and want to be inspired to get them outdoors, while also maintaining that, not just the authenticity of being out and, you know, making it clear that we're not just out here to, you know, display that for but also kind of a, not safety, you know, like life and death safety, but just you don't want the whole world having access to your kids. How do you find that line where you feel like you're getting the best of both worlds without crossing into territory that you shouldn't be in?
Tim
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And I guess there are some days where I still don't even know how to answer that to you. A lot of it is gut feeling, knowing, like I said, we don't want every time she's out or every time we're doing something for it to be completely documented for everyone else not that it's not maybe documented but just not for everyone else I don't I like like when I said what our why is it really it comes back to that and if something doesn't align with that it's an easy no we've had even in the fly fishing industry lots of different companies that have come approached us and at first they seem really what's the word I'm looking for they're they're they're gung-ho to get her involved in some way and it appears to be a supportive thing when as our account has grown organically it's it's become quite large and so for them they're only there to take advantage of the situation whether it's do they want to use her as a marketing tool or something like that and that doesn't align with what we want for her so yeah sure maybe one day when she's of age where she can make that choice on her own and she wants to you know, partner with a company and do something awesome, wicked. I know that if she stays in the past, she's on, she's going to have a lot of opportunities coming towards her in the future. And that excites me too. But it is a, that line can't be crossed at this time at this age. I mean, she's five years old. You, there's always going to be negatives. Hopefully the positives outweigh them. And as long as they do, then we keep doing what we're doing. I hopefully we never encounter something in the social media world where it's too much that we have to just shut down and leave. We have no intention of ever doing that. But at the same time, her life and her safety is worth more than anything else. So I guess in a roundabout way, I don't really know how to answer that question. Hopefully, yeah, you never have to worry about that line in a serious way. In a serious way, yeah. I mean, there's, I think one of the frustrating things is that in a public profile that we have content gets taken a lot and used in other places and I think without your permission you mean yeah definitely and I mean there was days and times where I would fight with every person who did it or take something repost it I mean not only repost it not post it on our behalf not say it was us and then it would just be out there and it's a frustrating thing for us because we we don't want our kid going to places that we haven't given permission to as far as content is concerned. So at this point, it's pretty simple. I stopped fighting it. I just literally blocked, delete, gone. Maybe they were able to use that photo, but they'll never see our stuff again. And if they only want to do that to hype their own accounts or whatever it is, then they're not people we want as part of our group. And it's really interesting in the social media game because you can actually really cater what you want to yourself. I mean, you choose your audience. you can say no to some and yes to others. So I think it's a, it's actually a really cool thing you can do. You can really gain the audience that you like and hopefully encourage the people that at the end of the day, that's what we're here for. So. Yeah.
Katie
Now, have you found that that's, is that, are those people few and far between? I hope that are sharing your stuff without your permission or, or acting appropriately?
Tim
Yeah, I think it, you know, there was a time when it was a lot more and I think at this point you know it yes probably once or twice a week but not really okay on the grand scheme of things not not not every day that's I would still consider that quite a bit yeah it is I agree it is a lot but it's not like again like I said it's not an overwhelming thing it's not something that consumes our our thought and our process but
Katie
yeah I'm sure every time you eliminate one of those people you know that that's just taking away future incidents that would potentially happen with the same person
Tim
yeah totally we bring it back to the fact that you know we again we bring it back to our why what we want and we not going to let it discourage us because it's it's it just as a parent you want to have control and sometimes I understand that by having an account with her like I do I I'm giving up some control I just it's part of what I've had to accept in this process and at this point like I said the the pros outweigh the cons. So we're in a good place.
Katie
That's good. That's good to hear. Now she gotten into fly tying at all. I know with the, she said she's really into bird hunting. So I feel like that would pair perfectly with fly tying.
Tim
Yeah, no, she, she is actually, she's sitting upstairs. She'd probably want me to be up there tying with her right now. She actually Norvise gave her advice yesterday and that's her first own, her own personal advice. So she's super pumped to have it. She's, she loves it she's always kind of been I don't know from a creative sense just tying whatever she wanted it was nothing that was a specific pattern she just likes to and I let her just do it for the last couple years to really get used to tools understanding advice understanding tying some of the smaller techniques and I think she's this is her year where she's ready to start actually tying patterns that she can fish herself and I think for her that would be unbelievably rewarding to catch something on something she had tied herself but yeah like today we're all bird hunting today she was just super jacked because she wants to get the specific specific birds that's got these specific feathers and bring them home and get to tie with them so it's kind of all full circle
Katie
that's just got to be the most satisfying thing to to see her excitement for for a reason like that where you know she really really wants to get that bird not just because she thinks it's what you want her to yeah but because she actually you can she's telling you why she wants it she's like I've got this pattern in mind that I'm gonna tie when I get it
Tim
yeah totally yeah that's right it is satisfying and it's I mean being a parent you don't you your kids constantly shock you they always they they amaze you and their train of thought it's never what you're really thinking it's kind of about the left field but it's always exciting to and I do like a lot of people say to us all the time man her her excitement is intoxicating and all I can say is I know it is like it for me it is she gets me excited about things that I'm not excited about anymore. And sometimes she checks, checks my ego. And when she catches, or I catch a tiny trout about how beautiful it is, how, you know, how unbelievable every experience with anything wild is like, yeah, it's humbling sometimes. And you're like, man, like, where did you get your age? Like, you know, it's wisdom that it can only come from a place of innocence, I guess.
Katie
Yeah. Well, I think, I think you're, you've got it right in, you know, having her just tie whatever she wants. I did a little bit of tying when I was a kid before I ever fly fished. It was just, I like to fish and I heard about fly tying. And so I grabbed a pair of pliers and somehow attached them to my table and would tie things that were not real patterns. And nothing would have killed my enthusiasm for that faster than being given a list of steps and materials I needed. You know, I think I was given some thread and feathers and told to just like make things. And I'm sure nothing would kill a kid's enthusiasm more than just being told, here's a, here's a set of steps you need to follow to, to do it right.
Tim
Yeah, exactly. No, it's not, at this age, I think, I think we do at times, even as parents or as other people want our kids to grow up too fast. They are, genuine, innocent little creatures that their imagination is only what we wish ours could still be. As we, we've closed down that part of our mind and just letting them, whether it's play or whether it's whatever it happens to be, creativity in their mind is far beyond what ours is. And it's fun to just let them be, let them be kids.
Katie
Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that because I recently finished a book that was mostly about something else, but they had a section of it that was about the decline of free play and kids in the U.S. specifically and how everyone wants their kid to be ready for college. So everyone has to do all the sports and all the extracurricular activities and this and that. And they get to college with a long resume of things that they've experienced. But that rigid structure of being told, you know, you need to sign up for this team and do this and do that. A lot of them come in kind of unprepared just because so much of, you know, a kid's development is just in being able to play freely and interact with other kids without an adult there, you know, settling every argument, settling every disagreement, figuring things out for them, and just letting them go do their own thing is such an important part of their development.
Tim
it absolutely is they they have to form those connections in their own mind that I mean yes it's important that we give them boundaries to play to be within but beyond that yeah I totally agree they they need that they need to experience things and I think for for kids growing up if you can get them outdoors what they're experiencing in in nature as cliche as it sounds nature teaches them they they see life and death they see a spider catch a mosquito and eat it that's life and death. They didn't have to wait for their dog to die at the age of 10 to see that, you know, like the correlations that can be taught to them whilst being in nature is, I think something that's irreplaceable. You can't, you really can't, you know, replicate that as much as we'd like to, and to teach lessons and such. It's important to just let them be sometimes, let them watch. Most of what Wren knows is either because she's overheard it or because she's watched it happen. It's not something that's really been hammered into her and taught to her. Most of it is just her watching what happens around her. And then when they come to you with questions, then it's the perfect time to answer them because they've thought about why they're asking it, not just being told it.
Katie
Sure. Does she ever say anything to you that just kind of brings something up in your own mind that you hadn't thought about before? Just because just seeing things through a child's perspective, I'm sure it's completely different than what you see. Even if you grew up in the outdoors, a lot of things I feel like are, you become jaded as you've been doing these things for years and years and years. Does she ever say something that just makes you like a light bulb click? And you're just like, oh my God, I'd never seen it that way. Even though I've been out here for decades doing this.
Tim
I think, I think more than anything, what, what she does is she, she reminds me of things that I'm overthinking. Maybe if it's like, you know, I brought her in a fish and we're stalking it. We can see it feeding and I'm trying to like pick this perfect fly to match this, even though there's nothing happening and she'll just be, she'll remind you, just, just cast to the fish, dad, stop, like, stop trying to figure this out. It's a natural thing that's eating. Catch it. Like, and sometimes the simplicity of their thought pattern is what, what counts, right? It's, we like to think past what they're, but they're seeing it for the first time or, you know, a lot less than we've already seen it, regardless of the situation. For her, I, I think she's brought my appreciation for, well, nature in general, to a different perspective, because, you know, I always spent time outside. I grew up outside. I was out there all the time and I kind of lost appreciation for some of the, you know, the, the things you, you wouldn't be appreciating, whether it's a beautiful butterfly or whether it's the sound of the water flowing over the rocks, whatever it might be. She brings light to that a lot of times about what she's feeling or how, what, why she likes it. Um, and it always catches me off guard. It's like, yeah, like humble yourself a bit. There's more here. There's more here than targeting that fish in that run or trying to get that, that deer and this push, like whatever it might be. She's, she's really good about bringing, bringing me back to the, maybe what my why should be, why I'm out there. Cause it is more than just those things.
Katie
I feel like that's something that it can be helpful having anyone, your child or just a friend or something, the number of times I've been frustrated, you know, sitting in a river, wondering why, you know, the fish aren't taking my fly and someone just casually mentioned something like, wow, it's really nice out today. And it's like, oh yeah, it is really nice out today. Like, I don't really, does it really matter that the fish aren't taking this fly? I'm sitting on the side of a river. I just feel like kids tend to do that a little bit more.
Tim
Yeah, they are. They definitely have a little bit different mindset than we do.
Katie
On the other hand, have you noticed any specific challenges with trying to, you know, do things that you've been doing for forever, but now trying to do that with somebody who's five and doesn't have the same abilities you have and doesn't have the same knowledge you have?
Tim
Yeah, absolutely. Like that's, there is, and what I guess I would preface this to say for parents who are trying to get their kids started in the outdoors, whether it's at six months or whether it's at eight years old, be prepared for challenges and accept them as they come. Don't, don't overwhelm yourself. there's a lot of things you can do to make it easier for yourself and I've tried to do that even in in our social media is to try to help people through that process but there's yes there's challenges on every stage of Wren's development there's been challenges you know when she was younger and she was super young like six months to a year it was one of the easiest times because she would just sleep on your chest well then she gets to about two years old and she needs to be carried everywhere but she wants to be down all the time so you're in and out of a pack you're always walking into the water she like from a safety standpoint challenges are are out or paramount you have to keep her keep your kids safe and I think those stages as she goes I think we're in the easiest one for me right now because I'm not having to carry her everywhere now she's kind of getting around on her own a lot better but yeah there's there's challenges at every at every turn there's a challenge with with your kids it's not easier to have them out there it's more rewarding. But understanding that it might take a while for those rewards to feel like rewards. There's a lot of days that you go out there that don't turn out in your head the way you think they're going to. As a parent, you have to really just leave your expectations out of the equation because what you want to go there to do today might not be what's going to happen. In fact, I would say 99% of the time, it's not what happens. So be, just be, you know, be understanding They are children and you are trying to get them involved in something. If you go out there, I think the biggest mistake parents make, and I know I did it in the start too, is if you go out there and you spend so much time just like in your head, you're like, I got to put in all this time out there and really force the situation. They're not going to want to be there with you anymore. And then you've defeated the entire purpose. Don't force them beyond what they're capable of. If their hands are cold, if you can't warm them, go home. If they're hungry and you didn't bring enough food, go home. You know, things that in your mind, you want to be out there all day, but understand that you have a child with you that isn't following suit with maybe what you want. But if you truly care about the end goal being not that you got to go fishing today and your kid came with you, but that you took your child fishing and you want them to have the experience that you hope for them to have, then understand that it is actually 100% about them and not about you at all. So take care of your kids, make sure that they have a positive experience as much of the time as possible. And then they're going to want to keep going with you. And then you're going to have Wren, like now, who is constantly asking to go do things. There's nothing forced about it. She wants to go. I mean, once you get to that point, you're winning. Because now not only do you get to go do what you want to do, but you've got a little partner in crime who's just as anxious and wants to go and makes it even more rewarding. And I know that it doesn't come easy. There's, like I said, lots of challenges throughout the way, but worth every second.
Katie
Yeah, I think that's definitely something I would struggle with as well as someone who does not have kids. But I used to guide a little bit and I would sometimes, we would offer trips that were kid friendly and the kids would get to spin fish while the parents fly fished. And having dealt with other people's children, I would definitely have moments where I was like, how are you hungry? We just ate. Or like, how are you cold? It's sunny and 80 out. And it's just, it's easy to forget that kids just don't always function the same way you do. And it's, it may never make sense, but you just kind of have to roll with it if that's your goal for the day.
Tim
Yeah, I guess that's what it comes down to. Is that your goal? Or is it not? And if you're truly, like I said, you truly care about those kids, and you want the best experience for them, then you have to just set aside your, the things that you want for that day and make make it about them, because that's how you're going to make it possible to keep going on in the future and having them still want to be out there with you, which, I mean, at least from my perspective, I don't know why that wouldn't be your goal. Unless you're an incredibly selfish person.
Katie
Well, at that point, you're probably not taking your two-year-old out anyway.
Tim
No, probably not. No, no, that's right.
Katie
So what challenges is she facing right now as a five-year-old? What is she, is she mostly kind of just on her own and doing well? Or is it knots in the fly line? Is it like, what is a five-year-old experience as a challenge?
Tim
Well, I mean, being completely and utterly honest with everyone, It's not for her. It's not, fly fishing isn't easy. It's not something that she's absolutely amazing at. She's a five-year-old. I mean, she, she can cast pretty good. I'll give her that. She's definitely got that. Um, and she's caught a handful of fish on her own cast on everything, but 99% of her experience with fishing is someone holding her hand, me being there, helping her with her cast, understanding when to set the hook. The challenges for her are that her mind is already holding the trout and she's just trying to figure out how to, how to not have my help to get there, you know? Um, and I, I think this year of all the years, just because I, I've seen her grow in other ways. I think this next season is probably going to be the biggest growth year for her. Um, she's, she's right there. You know, she's on the cusp of understanding, you know, my cast is important. My drift is important, you know, mending, not because she knows to mend, but because she watches people mend. And I just need that cliff to happen as to why I'm actually mending, understanding when to set playing fish she's done all of those things but it's like getting them to put together consistently is her challenge okay she's at a she's at a funky size right now like she's unfortunately she's got two very short parents she's never going to be tall so in out of the drift boat she loves to fish out of the drift boat well it's now it's like getting her so she's tall enough to stand in the leg locks get her on something that's the right height and just getting her to where she's comfortable casting where I don't have to go up make a cast for her I mean I can if I were let's say we're indicator fishing and then thing I can place a cast for her from the rower seat hand her the rod and she'll sit there watch it and mend and if the bob goes down she'll set the hook but trying to get her to be comfortable enough doing that on her own so I don't ever have to get out of the seat is I think what what she really wants even though her abilities are just not quite there like it's kind of interesting thing to say but she really is like a 30 year old in her mind and she's just trying to you know have the physical capabilities that a 30 year old has, even though she's five, you know, she, like even today we're, we're hiking, we hike two, three kilometers, in the bush and she's just tired and she's frustrated that she's tired because she wants to just be able to walk all day. It's like, well, you're, you know, you're three feet tall and you have tiny legs. It's not just that you're young. It's, you gotta grow up a bit. But, I think the biggest limitations for her, her mind, her frustrations are just that she is around people all the time in the industry. she hangs out with all of my guiding friends they're like her best friends she gets to see how everything happens and she really just wants to be that good already and you know it it just takes time and it takes learning and abilities being gained so
Katie
yeah I feel like that's a good problem to have I feel like it would be more frustrating from your standpoint if she if you were trying to if you were trying to convince her to you know like you can do this come on you know I know you can do it and you're holding back I I feel like I would much rather have a child who is like too eager you know they they really want to do it and just don't have the physical capabilities you know the hand-eye coordination and everything yet because you know that as soon as she develops those abilities she's going to be on it you know she's going to be pushing you to you know push her on the bike and let her ride instead of hand holding for for way too long so I i don't know at what age that happens I feel like five is younger than most kids that I've ever heard of fly fishing it's usually like start on the spin rod and then transition later but it sounds like you know within a couple of years I feel like she's got to be you know basically doing it all on her own
Tim
yeah I'm hoping so she like her hand eye coordination has definitely got a lot better her under her under I think the biggest thing is her understanding as to why she's doing things has got a lot better I'm not just doing it because she sees me doing it and the more she gets to see fish gets to understand you know the process behind why we catch them why we want to catch them and why we let them go she's just really gaining appreciation for this the you know the animal itself and why we're why we're taking care of it why we're so good with it and I think she's bridging those gaps in her mind now as to why she wants to fish why she wants to be a better caster why she wants to you know be able to fight fish better those things and that's just going to come it's going to come with time and like you said I would think within a couple years just seeing her growth I think she's pretty close like I think she'll be there before too long but to be completely honest for her I think she's every bit as excited to watch someone else catch a fish like she she absolutely just loves being in the process and when someone catches a fish doesn't matter if it's her or me she is stoked and that's that's super fun to watch and hopefully she carries that you know forward because that will make her a great angler one day possibly a great guide one day you know things like that so yeah
Katie
Has she expressed any interest in like or what she what she wants to do when she grows up right now is it you know does she want to guide does she want to be a fish biologist like what's what's her dream
Tim
oh man if you asked her she'd probably just say she wants to ride a horse and fish that's the only two things that really matter to her. yeah I know right I'm like I'll be totally agree with that too so here's the next thing you have to make money to survive
Katie
yeah but you guys pay for everything I don't see why she needs to make money
Tim
I know that's that's the thing we're at right now she'll be like oh I want this okay dad well you just go buy it okay like I think we're missing a little bit of the in between here where you understand that when she's an only child right so she I mean maybe to our fault but we have given her almost everything that she's ever needed for sure what she's ever needed and a lot of what she's wanted because I mean we have the capability to do that and we enjoy doing that for her so there's probably a few hard teenage years in there I'm sure that won't be amazing but
Katie
yeah I feel like a lot of kids swing back like yeah I feel like everyone goes through those teenage years but a lot of people swing back to what they loved as a kid I definitely took a break from a lot of you know I grew up fishing and I definitely took a pretty serious break from that kind of late high school and college just because I had so much other stuff going on but now I'm back to exactly where I left off I felt like so I feel like even if she does go through those teenage years I'm I'm sure she's kind of ingrained enough now that it's probably pretty hard to escape
Tim
yeah that's what I'm kind of hoping for but and it's honestly I'm totally okay if like if fishing turns out that's not something she loves to do I know that she'll be as happy just being out there with me because it's in the outdoors she has an absolute love for being outside and that that's okay with me like I I think a lot of times as parents we really almost want to force it on them and to be honest in the beginning that's literally what I did because I just wanted to go do these things so she was there with me and I know she's gaining appreciation love for it now but it's one of those things that we also have to let them like you said wander learn play figure out what you want to do it's like your parents telling you you've got to go to college this year it's your first year go take you know make your choice what are you going to do when you grow up and you and you take a bachelor of arts instead of taking a year of general studies which would probably give you a wider appreciation for maybe different things and what you might actually want to do and I have to let them decide and let her let her explore there's lots of things that she loves that have nothing to do with the outdoors and I'm totally fine with that as long as it doesn't involve sitting in front of a screen all day you know I'm happy about it
Katie
I feel like, and I know I keep saying things like this but I don't have any kids but like I feel like that's the way to go because you always hear about kids who they either you know were taken fishing by their dad as a kid and they were meant to spend spend 10 hours in a boat doing nothing all day and now they hate it or they come out and that's all they want to do and I think it depends a lot it's like very nuanced it's easy to swing one way or the other like I never want to fish again because I hated as a kid just like sitting there with my dad doing nothing or that's what I did with my dad growing up. I can't wait to go back and do it again. So it's kind of like a fine line there. But I feel like the ones who tend to really hate it afterwards are the ones who didn't have any other choice. They didn't have any other hobbies. They were told this is what you're going to do. You know, like it or not, we're doing this. Yeah. But I feel like a lot of the kids who, you know, you give them, you give them some leeway and you say, you know, it's okay if you like fishing and dance or, you know, crossword puzzles or whatever you like doing. Just kind of having that freedom, knowing that you're not being forced into it. I feel like those are the kids who, who generally look back favorably.
Tim
Yeah. And I would agree with you. I think that that's, it's something that they need to be given, given the options. And if they choose it, hopefully it aligns with what you want. And often kids do just want to do what you do because they look up to you as a parent. They want to be involved in the similar things that you do. And so I think you're right. It's just important to let them have a little bit of that freedom and don't force them. like like I said I think that kid who has been forced to sit in an aluminum boat on the lake for 10 hours a day burning in the sun not catching anything yeah that's not a positive experience like read the room as a parent you got to read the room a bit maybe you're only out there for a half hour at a time yeah you know do something to make it fun for the kid and if it's not then you've defeated the purpose of even taking them out there in the first place right it would have been better just to to leave them behind on that day probably
Katie
yeah honestly because they at least they wouldn't hate you.
Tim
That's the goal. Yeah. Let's be honest. That's the end goal as a parent. Just have your kid love you.
Katie
So what other tips do you have for someone who's, who's got a little kid and they're like, man, I really, really want my kid to like what I do, be it fishing, hunting, or really anything. I feel like these are, these are fishing specific stories, but in reality, they probably are transferable to nearly any hobby you have. But like, what tips do you have for getting your child into, in this case, fishing and having them enjoy having a good day, having them want to go back again?
Tim
Yeah, I mean, there's, I think some of the biggest things that I've that I've kind of stated a little bit already was, you know, the biggest thing is the time spent understand when it's time to go home. Understand that you don't, you don't want to force your kids into anything. If you have if you force them, if you if you if you force them to do something that they're not really excited to do chances are they are not gonna want to continue doing it and then like I said you've really defeated the purpose of what you're doing I think it's you know another huge one is food it's super simple basic but like you have to have food for your kids at all time if you don't have enough snacks your day is going to be ruined and like honestly if you forget your snacks you might as well turn around and go home because it's probably not going to turn out right yeah having that I guess coming back to that timeline piece don't or that time pieces don't have a timeline allow your day and your mind to be malleable to what might be the circumstance at hand because it probably will change another huge one is and I know it's tough and it's hard to spend a lot of money on gear that you're not wearing yourself but buy your kids good gear that's cannot be understated enough and I'll emphasize that buy your kids the right gear thankfully there are a few companies out there now that are actually building good kids gear whether it's just for generally being in the outdoors or whether it's specific to fly fishing we work with a company called oaky oaky kids wear and they make waders for kids as young as two I mean that that was an absolute game changer for me and Wren I was able to keep her dry out on the water that's I mean that's huge for us and so companies like that that have come in and started to build things for kids that are pretty much as good as what we wear. It makes an absolutely huge difference. Wearing warm clothes, investing in the best socks you can find for them because feet are always cold, things like that. Getting a good raincoat, puff coat. I know it's expensive, but go to Patagonia, pay the ridiculous price to have kids' clothes that are of equal quality to yours because you have to put yourself in their shoes. They're actually more vulnerable to the weather and the challenges that that brings than you are. And you know what you want to wear. So make sure that you have equal or adequate gear. That one I just can't overstate enough. The gear is a huge game changer.
Katie
Do they make separate boots and waders for the kids or are these boot foot waders?
Tim
So oaky ones, there are boots on them. And honestly, I think that's, from my experience, you don't want separate boots.
Katie
Okay, why is that?
Tim
Well, at least for a little girl, she's got to pee. You got to get her out of them, right? So if you had to take off the boots every time, you can just pull down the waders. But trust me, we filled those waders a few times now, but not less than a hard way. That's a little challenge for me.
Katie
You got to have the balance for that.
Tim
Yeah. Yeah. And dad's trying to hold her over a log. Yeah. It's one of those things that, yeah, you want those boots to be attached because then you can just take it all off and get them back in.
Katie
Fair enough. Because I've seen those, like the little kid waders, but I've never seen a pair of kids waders that doesn't have the boot attached. So I was just wondering if maybe you had found those, but it sounds like maybe there's not much of a need for them.
Tim
No, and I would say that about the time, I think the Oki ones go up to like maybe seven or eight T. And then after that, you're basically at that point, you're transitioning into, well, Sims makes them now. Orvis makes them. They're like small youth waders and small youth boots. Like they're really, really small, like probably for like an eight, seven, eight year old, nine year old somewhere in there. So I think it perfectly timed for her. She'll transition out of these waders we're using now and into like actual, you know, Orvis or Simms ones. And there's, there are other companies that make them too that have, you know, separate, separate boots once they kind of get to that youth age. But yeah, I think for, I think for just kids, the best idea is keeping those boots on. And for a little boy, maybe it's different. I'm speaking from the experience of having a little girl, but it's always nice to just be able to rip those waders off at the end of the day and not have to go looking for those boots either. They're already attached and being able to, you know, it just makes life a little bit easier.
Katie
Yeah. Do you find that you need to get new ones to accommodate growing feet or have you just gotten ones that are large enough that you can kind of get a couple of years out of them and then upgrade from there?
Tim
Yeah, that's a good question. Well, this specific company, the way their sizing works is pretty accurate to the age. So a two T is truly probably for most two year olds, the right size. And kind of working your way up. Wren just, just went into five T ones this year. I'll be honest. We're spoiled. Oki's taking care of us. Like they send us a new pair every year. So I'm not, I'm not, it's not something I'm worried about investing in every year for her, but I would say, yes, she like inside a year and about, I think we get about a year and a half out of her waiters before her feet of like, and that's the problem, right? They're still not cheap. I think they're just under a hundred bucks or around a hundred dollars us for them. Um, again, coming back to the gear though, it doesn't matter what it costs. Ignore the price when it comes to your kids cause it's the most important piece. Um, but yeah, you, you have to have the right size. Cause if they're, if they're too big, then they're going to trip and fall everywhere cause their feet are sloping around inside. And if they're too small, their feet are freezing. So it's, you really got to have a pair that fits them well, as long as possible. So. Yeah.
Katie
Is she using a full size fly rod?
Tim
Um, she uses an Echo Gecko. I, in my opinion, it's probably the best kids rod that's ever been made. It's, right from the very start. She, I got it for her when she was like two. Um, I got her the Echo practice rod. Um, I don't use Echo, any other Echo product personally speaking, I don't love them, but this one has been super good for her. It's a rod that's actually got a fighting butt on it, a longer one. So big enough that you can put her bottom hand can go on there. So it's a lot easier to teach a kid a roll cast than teach him the false cast.
Katie
Oh, I'm sure, yeah.
Tim
So starting off, it was all roll casting. And then pretty soon it was she's using that bottom hand to give her strength to even hold the rod because they're tiny little people. And then she would pick up all the line off the water with both hands on the rod and cast it back out. And so that rod has been super clutch for us. It loads really well for a kid. I mean, most people think, oh, a little kid, I'll get him a three-weight, eight-foot three-weight. that is the worst thing you can do for them because it's an absolute noodle. They can't, they can never feel anything that's happening. Um, this rod, I believe is a five, six weight. And I think it's right around that eight foot mark somewhere in there.
Katie
Um, but it's not like mini.
Tim
No, not at all.
Katie
I've heard people ask if you should get like a tiny rod. And I've always heard that a kid can handle basically a full length fly rod. Um, cause it's, it's not the rod. That's the problem. It's their, you know, hand, eye coordination and everything. Um,
Tim
Totally.
Katie
And it's the weight, right?
Tim
It's, it's, yeah, it's a weight problem. If, if, if you give, if you handed them your five weight trout set up with a good, real big, real heavier, like hopefully it's not heavy, but you got to remember they are just kids. So it'll be a little bit heavy for them. Um, I, but I honestly feel the best part about it is that, that fighting butt on the bottom, because even when, even when now she's casting a lot better with only one hand, she will take that fighting button, pin it against your forearm. And so it just gives her a lot more stability in the rod and allows her to load it a lot better and now to the point where I can hand her any of my rods and she'll she'll cast them she'll whip her line out there and mend it and it's fine but I definitely notice a big difference in her performance if she's got her rod
Katie
so it sounds like it's kind of almost a halfway between a roll cast and a spay cast kind of using the two hands but kind of just you know getting that getting that line on the water and just loading it up and shooting it out there
Tim
yeah and that's really the easiest thing when a kid at the start it's not to don't get them casting upstream at a 45 trying to mend drift a dry fly put on a woolly bugger and let them swing it downstream because in reality they're going to make place a cast out there kind of straight out from them and they can understand just coming tight and letting that fly swing yeah that's something that's doable for them mending and trying to keep a dry fly from dragging I mean that's that's difficult right you have to have some very generous fish that are willing to eat a hopper that's skating at a 60 dollar an hour downstream but yeah so but yeah that's what she uses for rod I yeah I can't see enough good things about it it's been really good for her so and I'm actually at the point where I don't know how to transition her off of it because it's it's it's been so good for her I'm probably going to try to drag it out for a couple more years until she gets a little bit bigger and can handle handle maybe a full-size rod but and dad actually likes it too I love catching fish on it so
Katie
so is she fishing mostly streamers then on the swing or does she ever do any indicator nymphing or has she tried dry flies at all?
Tim
yeah she I would say mostly now she's dry fly fishing that's what she likes to do the most that and it's also about setting your kid up for the most success possible you're not going to take them to you know the most difficult ground trout fishery in the world to try to get some of fish on their own cast because it's just not probably not a super realistic thing when you know that you spooked that fish it's gone right it's hard for adults to do so exactly that yeah so there's a huge luck factor and again remembering if they really want to catch a fish and they don't they're disappointed right so it's it you want to create the best situation for them to succeed as possible so for us we have cutthroat trout fishing I'm not going to say it's easy but I think it I can say that our cutties are more willing to eat than other other trout they have a shorter time of year where they actually can be active and feeding so they're a little bit easier to catch and so her first fish ever on her own cast was was a cutthroat trout and she loves going out to the mountains it's beautiful she does probably prefer the walk and wade style over the boat more because she's more free to move around and so getting her onto those fishes is easier so putting on a you know a big stone fly or something big that she can see because she's not going to see you know a size 18 bwo out there on the water but she will see a nice fluffy stimulator or a stone fly of some kind and then get to see a big eat and I mean lots of times she she totally misses the hook set but with those bigger flies a lot of times they hook themselves and it's you know then it's on but yeah just just try to create the best situation for success is really all you're trying to do for them
Katie
so does she get satisfied by seeing she got strikes even if she didn't set the hook because I know like if I go out and I get 10 strikes and I miss them all I'm still like well it was good you know I sucked but it was good like can she recognize that yet or is it like a fish is not in the net it was terrible
Tim
I don't think she would say it's terrible she would probably love to tell it like she'll did you see that right there she's like she wants to catch it obviously but I think she appreciates that even getting a fish to eat is not an easy feat. And that's super cool thing to have happen. So, yeah, I, there's a lot of insight in her brain that I have no idea what she's ever thinking. There's a lot that she doesn't babble on about, but sometimes you just watch her look in there and you're like, you can tell she's deep in thought and you're just waiting for her to say something. Um, and then she doesn't, it's like, well, I really wish I could have had a brief window into what that was for that 10 seconds. Maybe she was thinking about bubblegum. I don't know, but who knows
Katie
yeah oh no she sounds like a lot of fun to fish with I and I feel like I've gotten that just from from watching you guys fish together on Instagram just she just she seems like the kind of person that you know when she grows up that's the person I'd want to fish with
Tim
well that's hopefully I'm creating my fishing partner for the rest of my life so I'd agree with that statement And it's, she, like I said earlier, she, she brings a light to, to what we do. Um, she's, she is so excited about even just the thought of going fishing, let alone the experience that it is when we're out there. Um, it makes, it makes life so much easier for us. She just brings a smile to my face every day. And hopefully that's being passed along a little bit to everybody else. And they feel that too. Um, because she, she is, I mean, I, I know I'm biased. I'm her dad, but I think she's a pretty special human. and I'm beyond great for her.
Katie
Yeah, that kind of transitions nicely into my last point I wanted to ask, which is maybe more like sentimental than what we've been getting into. But like what would, if you had to put into words, what the importance of getting the next generation into fly fishing is? Like how would you phrase that?
Tim
Well, I'd probably phrase it just like this. Understand that every time you create a fly fisherman, you've created a conservationist. You have the next generation ready to preserve what we all love to do, preserve the watersheds, preserve the fish, creating another little angler in your family. I mean, not only is that bringing you an unbelievable amount of joy, but you really are preserving everything to move forward. And hopefully you're going to maintain the things that we fight for every day in this industry to try to keep it the way we want it. If we don't educate our children to do the same, then we're going to lose it. And then their kids aren't going to have the opportunity to fly fish and to do other things and the outdoors that we love to do. Yeah, the importance is it can't be stated enough. I'm afraid that in our world today, we're definitely getting away from it. There are a lot less kids that are being raised with an outdoor lifestyle. I don't live in the country. I don't live on a farm. You know, and a lot of people associate outdoor living with that. And it doesn't have to be that way. Just get your kids outside. Let them experience a little bit of anything out there. And that's truly going to be, you know, what's important. She peeking in the back corner here. Come here, buddy. I'll take off my earphones so I can hear you.
Katie
Hi, Wren.
Wren
Hi.
Katie
We're talking about fishing today.
Wren
Yeah, I do like fishing.
Katie
What's your favorite fish to catch?
Wren
Brown trout.
Katie
That's what I hear.
Tim
Why do you like the brown trout so much?
Wren
Because I caught one last year.
Katie
That's a great reason. what's the biggest fish you've ever caught how big was it?
Wren
15 inches
Katie
15 inches nice that's pretty nice fish. I hear you're doing some fly tying too
Wren
yeah we are
Katie
you just get a new vise?
Wren
yeah I did get new vise
Katie
yeah what's the first thing you're going to tie on the new vise?
Wren
I already tied some flies.
Tim
What were they called? You're going to make something up. You did tell me a name. You don't remember what it was? I don't either because it didn't sound very realistic.
Katie
Maybe a copper wren.
Wren
Yeah. But after that, dad's going to teach me to tie a pattern.
Tim
What pattern are they going to teach you? Do you remember what it was called?
Wren
No.
Tim
The Wooly Bugger?
Wren
The Wooly Bugger.
Katie
Wooly Bugger, that's a good one to have.
Wren
Yeah.
Katie
Never have too many of those.
Wren
No.
Tim
No, never, hey. Never going to have too many. You know? Okay.
Katie
All right, Tim, we can wrap up. If you just want to share, you know, any handles, websites, anything like that, if people want to reach out to you or watch your adventures with Wren, where can they find you?
Tim
Yeah, for sure. Most of everything we share is on our account together, which is at Tim and Wren. I do have my other account is at Timothy Hepworth and that I do share a lot of stuff with her as well. I am on Facebook as Tim Hepworth, but we, I don't really, I don't have a big following there. Don't share as much there as we do on our other accounts. So.
Katie
Yeah. It seems to be the standard now. Barely anyone ever shares a Facebook account. Cause it's just like, just to share for grandma or. that's what you do yeah awesome well I will share all that in the in the show notes as well if anyone wants to come find you guys and I I hope a lot of people do because like I said it just brings me a lot of joy to you know log on and see what you guys are up to and I'm sure anyone with kids is probably hoping that they can get their their kid as into fishing as Wren is so um hopefully a lot of people will come your way and and check you guys out
Tim
I hope so that'd be great
Katie
all right Tim well I really appreciate you taking the time and I hope you have a great rest of your evening
Tim
I will thanks again Katie take care
Katie
all right and that is all as always if you liked what you heard I'd love for you to go over to Apple Podcasts or wherever else you listen to podcasts and subscribe there if you've got a couple extra minutes a rating or review would also be much appreciated doesn't take too long and it makes a big difference on my end you can also find all my episodes on fishuntamed.com in addition to fly fishing articles every two weeks and you can find me on social media under my name katie burger on go wild or at fish untamed on instagram and I will see you all back here in two weeks bye everyone We'll see you next time.
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