Ep 6: Fly Fishing Culture, with Nick DelVecchio
Nick DelVecchio is a fly fishing guide and the owner of Wildwood Outfitters out of Franklin, PA. In this episode, Nick and I chat about fly fishing culture, the divisive nature of modern-day fly fishing, and also get sucked into some talk about fishing and fishing regulations in PA.
Instagram: @wildwoodoutfitterspa
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Intro
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Katie
You’re listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast where we talk all things fishing, conservation, and the outdoors. Today on the show I'm talking with Nick DelVecchio, fly fishing guide and owner of Wildwood Outfitters in Franklin, Pennsylvania. Alright, welcome to episode number six of the Fish and Tame podcast. Today I'm chatting with Nick DelVecchio who owns Wildwood Outfitters in Franklin, Pennsylvania, my hometown. We start off by just chatting a bit about Wildwood and the trips they take in Northwest PA, mostly for trout and steelhead. So if you're in that area and would like to take a guided trip with him, definitely reach out. I'll link all his information in the show notes. It's a great way if you're new to the area or just just want someone to fish with. Definitely reach out to Nick and take a trip. And then toward the middle of the conversation we chat a bit more about fly fishing culture. As someone who spends a lot of water with a lot of different people. I was curious what Nick has noticed over the past couple years in terms of a changing demographic in the fly-fishing world. Everything from the type of people he gets through his his outfitter to the type of techniques they want to use. It's really easy when you're by yourself to just get trapped in your own little bubble but Nick sees so many different people that I was curious what changes and trends he's noticed in the past couple years in terms of fly-fishing culture. And then toward the end we get into some Pennsylvania specific fishing information, mostly about regulations and a couple of the management tools they use out there that are different from what I've experienced in Colorado and throughout a lot of the West. So if you haven't fished in Pennsylvania, you may be interested to hear some of the different tools and regulations they employ to manage their fishery out there for a different demographic than we've got out here. So without further ado, here is my chat with Nick DelVecchio. Well, why don't we start with, before we get into the whole cultural thing, if you want to do a quick spiel about Wildwood.
Nick
Well Wildwood Outfitters, we offer full day, half day trips in Pennsylvania for trout and steelhead. We'll go into the central part of the state, some of the spring creeks there, some of the freestone streams a little more north into the mountains after some native brook trout, our favorite fish to catch. And then when the time is right, we'll go to the Erie tributaries in Pennsylvania and Ohio and chase down steelhead and our trips provide all the gear. We encourage anglers of all skill levels to come out. There's certainly something to be had on a day on the water for anglers of all skill levels, experienced, beginners and everybody in between.
Katie
What's your most popular fish to take people? I know you said brook trout are your favorite, but do you just go based on what people say they want to catch or are you like recommending to people like let's go here this is what you want to catch?
Nick
Yeah you know a lot of it depends on time of year. You know, if we're going to go on a trip in the first week of June, then obviously I'm going to encourage our guests to, "Hey, maybe we want to head to the central part of the state and hit the tail end of the sulfur hatches or maybe even the prime spot for the green drakes." So some of that is dictated by time of year, but then also it's dictated by where people want to fish. Here outside of Franklin, where Wildwood Outfitters is located, we have a few brook trout streams, but not a ton. So if somebody books a trip and says, "Hey, that's what we want to go after, then we've probably got to travel a little more to the central part of the state. So each trip is different and the beauty of Pennsylvania is each trip can be customized to fit exactly what our guests want on that particular day.
Katie
And do you find that most people are looking for trout?
Nick
Probably, yeah. I mean that's it would probably be steelhead if they were in the streams long enough, but it's just such a fleeting opportunity we have to chase them. You know, there we're just right now we're waiting for the rains, waiting for the rains, waiting for the rains, and then all of a sudden the rains will come and then it'll freeze up. So it's just it's such a waiting game, such a weather dependent thing. They're fun to catch. They're probably the fish that people want to go after most, but we're just limited based on when they are actually here and able to be caught.
Katie
Do you get any, do you do any warm water? I think I probably asked you this before because I know that that's what I would want to do if I came, but.
Nick
Not a ton. We've certainly got some great warm opportunities around us. But to be honest with you it opens up a whole other can of worms trying to insure a boat and then everything that comes with it. So we just stick to trout and steelhead primarily although there are some excellent warm water fishing opportunities around as I'm sure you can attest to.
Katie
Yeah so just in case anyone doesn't know I grew up in the same town that Nick guides in but we did not know each other from that we just we've met virtually since then. But I know what he's referencing and yeah I would be in the warm water back home but I can appreciate the trout fishing and from what I've heard it's pretty good back there.
Nick
Yeah and you know maybe if you go fishing with us whenever you do come home then you could have some first-hand knowledge of that but no it's fine you know.
Katie
Yeah I'm sorry busy times every time I come home. Yeah. Plus I gotta fill it up with all the warm water.
Nick
Yep.
Katie
So we're talking culture today. I wanted to have Nick on because we've been kind of going back and forth for a long time and I know him well enough that I feel like we can talk about some of the more philosophical parts of fly fishing at this point but we go back and forth all the time about if we see something we're annoyed by or see something we're intrigued by you know send the other person a text and see what they think of it so we don't really have a path for this conversation to take apart from just fly fishing culture these days. But I guess I wanted to start with, as someone who owns a fly shop now, like now as in today's age, have you noticed anything different than when you maybe started fly fishing in terms of trends or changes in culture?
Nick
Well, you know, what's interesting is I started out as a guide in Colorado in 2011. So really not that long ago, but even in the short period of time between then and now, just the amount of information that's available to anglers on the internet is just unbelievable. Now you can join Facebook groups and you can go on to this form or that form. I think one of the biggest changes is that the day and age of you walking into a fly shop or in our case, since we have a virtual presence, someone calling or emailing to get a stream report to say, "Hey, how's the Cadiz hatch going?" I think that that's lost a little bit. And in some ways, I mean, it's great to have all that information right on hand and made to order for folks. But I also think it's a little sad because who doesn't like going into a fly shop and BS-ing with the locals and just kind of seeing what's up, seeing what fish are being caught, what's hatching. And it's just, those are good quality connections and conversations that I think we've lost a little bit and we hope to bring it back. You know we're trying to be very approachable to folks that want to just call and even if they aren't going on a trip just say, "Hey how's the fishing?" You know what a fun conversation to have if that's the worst thing we've got going on that day is chatting with someone about how the local fisheries are doing. That's pretty cool.
Katie
Yeah and I think a lot of shops have realized that. I mean it's it's definitely a positive that you know so many people have access to that stuff online. There's so many people getting into it or at least interested in it and I think a lot of shops are noticing that because I'm seeing less and less, I guess, fewer shops, you know, trying to entice people to come in to talk about like where to go and what to use but they're doing things like, "Hey, come fish with us like a fish for free day where we all just get together and you're not necessarily being guided. You're not paying for a guided trip but, you know, they'll close down the shop an hour early and everyone will go fish together." and that's I think I've noticed that that's kind of the new way they're getting people in the door because you know even their fishing reports are now online so you don't even need to come in to look at the board and you can you can buy those flies wherever you look up the the hash report online and you go buy it wherever you're you're shopping.
Nick
Right and well you know that's just it too the online commerce aspect of the whole deal you can get a dozen flies on a thousand different websites for 14 cents a piece or are you going to go into a fly shop and pay three bucks a piece for those flies? Now you could argue that you're getting other information by going into the shop, but in just a strict sense of dollars and cents, it's more and more popular for people to just do everything they can online and avoid any human interaction at all costs. I mean, heck, just look at the Amazon model. I can order anything I want and get it shipped to my house for free in two days. Who the heck doesn't want to do that?
Katie
I don't know if this is specific to maybe some of the shops I've stopped in, but I've had some experiences even recently that weren't the best in terms of going into a shop for information. I went into one a couple weeks ago and I was like, "Hey, where's Fishing Well?" He was like, "Well, anywhere." I was like, "Do you want me to buy something from you? Because I'm not tempted to right now."
Nick
Yeah, you know, it's like, it's so weird that we have so much water to fish and so many fish are out there, but then we just keep these guarded secrets like we have nuclear launch codes or something like that. You know, it's, you know, that's part of the fun is sharing the information with others and then they come back in and then they say, Hey, I went to the spot that you recommended or I threw the flies that you mentioned, and I had a great day. You know, what's better than helping someone else have the day of their summer? I mean, you don't know how many days other people get to fish. could be someone could call in and just have one day to fish for the entire summer and what am I gonna do steer them in the wrong direction for what.
Katie
Right I mean it's not like if I show up and when your guides is there I'm obviously not gonna go to that spot you know I feel like I've gotten the impression from some of those interactions that it's almost like a we're trying to guard our secrets because we also guide but I'm like I'm also gonna buy something from you like this is a mutual understanding here that I'm gonna go find some stuff to buy from your shop and in return you can you know give me a couple pull-offs you know, I don't need your special hole, but you can tell me the same place you told the last three people. I don't care. Just give me something to go off.
Nick
Well, and I wonder to some degree how much that's driven by a lack of etiquette that you sometimes experience out on the water, and if that just happens to you over and over and over again. I don't know if maybe people just get burnt out and they say, "You know what? The heck with it. I'm done giving up anything because every time I do I'm getting high-holed by randoms or who knows what." But I don't know if that plays into it or…
Katie
I mean I can see that but I almost feel like at that point you probably shouldn't trying to be trying to run a fly shop you know yeah like you're there to help people and you know I don't I'm not trying to like bash any fly shops obviously you're an outfitter and everything but I feel like it has gotten more guarded and not just from people who are like I've got my I mean I'm I'm of course guilty of that but if I have a honey hole I'm probably not gonna share it with the world but if I owned a fly shop on a popular river I'm not gonna hide you know pull-offs along that river everyone knows them.
Nick
Right well and you know also if you're a guide out there and you only have a couple spots and if there are people in those spots you don't know what to do then you probably need to reevaluate anyway because you should have dozens of spots that if the first ten are filled with cars well that's okay you can go catch fish somewhere else that's the whole point of being a guide on a particular waterway is having that local expertise and knowing where to go even when those conditions are tough. That's what people are there paying you for.
Katie
Right. I also think the motivation would be there to help people not just because I'm going to buy something in your shop, but if that's the last thing keeping fly shops alive which I kind of view that way because you can get everything online is why do I like stopping in a fly shop when I go to a new town? Because I want to talk to someone. I want to talk to someone who's fished there. I want to get a feel for the local scene and that's what I value. I'm not going to stop going to fly shops because I do appreciate but if I go in and feel brushed off, then I'm like, "Well, I will just go to Amazon at that point." You know? Yeah.
Nick
Right. There's nothing worse than whenever you walk into a fly shop and you're just milling around and everybody's just ignoring you. It's like, "Okay. Well, I don't have to be here. I can just go figure it out or stumble around and maybe I'll figure it out, maybe I won't." But on the other end of that, there's few things better than walking into a fly shop and then all of a sudden an hour has passed and you're just BSing with some guy or girl who's working in the shop and it's just the best thing ever. You're talking about fishing, you're talking about where to go, and then the conversation evolves to the waters. You fish back home and it's just a great quality conversation, which is what you should have in an outfit or a fly shop whenever you reach out for any reason.
Katie
Yeah, and I think also with the variety of people, that's kind of something we can also talk about is like when you think of a fly fisherman, I feel like a lot of people, especially those who don't fish, if you ask them what a fly fisherman looks like, it's tweed wearing, type smoking, scotch drinking, old man. That still comes to mind, but I feel like for me, I don't know anyone who really fits that description, honestly. A different image comes to mind for me, and usually at least where I am in Colorado, it's usually a bearded flannel-wearing guy probably in his late 20s. Then you've also got the flat brim. A lot of people make fun of that group, but that's also a major group in fly fishing. Do you have a main demographic that you see come through your shop?
Nick
I think fly fishing is just such a perfect encapsulation of America. It's just like a melting pot. Like you said, you just have all those different types of people because we do see the old-timers that have either lived here forever or maybe they're just passing through, visiting family, whatever, and they're definitely more old school. But then we have those new age hipster fly fishers that you know they just doing it for the 'gram. You know so it's just there and then there's everybody in between and then you know you have families, you have girls, you know there's just it is a true melting pot. Like tomorrow I have a trip with a father and son and the father probably fits the old school you know pipe smoking, tweed wearing, maybe not to that degree but towards that direction. And then the young guy's like, well, I'm going to wet wade. And I said, well, it's going to be 55 degrees tomorrow. And he said, I don't care.
Katie
You're going to do it.
Nick
Yep, I'm going to do it. So there are just all mixes and all types in fly fishing. And I think that's part of what makes it so fun is you never know who you're going to run into that day. And whether that's guiding, whether that's fishing on your own, if you're the type that wants to chat up other anglers out on the water, some think that's maybe a little taboo. But you'll just find a little mix of everything out there.
Katie
And why do you think that's taboo? Because I agree that it's I feel like I used to be able to walk up to someone and say you know what are they biting on and I'd get an answer and now I'm like I don't want to ask someone what's working even though it's I mean for the most part if I walk past someone to a completely different spot after them like knowing what fly they're using it's not gonna like rid the water of fish for them but it's still a little bit taboo to ask what people are using.
Nick
Yeah and you know I'm guilty of this because I'll tell you if I'm on the stream and especially if I'm on a guide trip and I see someone walking by with a stringer and they say how's it going you aren't getting one peep of information out of me. Oh what am I gonna do tell you where all the fish are so you can go down and catch them and bring them home and throw them in your freezer and then what do I do with tomorrow's guide trip? You know I I have a vested interest in them hanging around as long as possible. So I will say in those instances, I'm pretty tight lipped, but otherwise, I love talking to other people in the stream and there's nothing better than whenever the person you're trying to talk to, you can tell is trying to be tight lipped and you just kill them with niceness. Hey, you know, how's it going? Fine. Oh, well, how's it, you know, we're out here fishing. What a day. You know, it's just you can spin it in a way that you almost just force them to be nice to you and that's the best thing.
Katie
Well I think that might also be a divide and you and I have talked about this before and I'm obviously not I'm not a die-hard catch and release or die-hard catch and keep angler but if I were out on the river every day trying to catch fish I would not want to tell someone who I know is going to be out there every day taking fish out of the river even though I keep fish sometimes obviously I'm not there trying to make a living off it but that's that's a big divide and I feel like but I feel like that that's not that's not only what would cause someone to not want to share information. Because I'd say, you know, 90% of the people I encounter on the water are not keeping any fish, but they're still very protective of the fact that there are fish in that river. You know, as though someone else catching one is going to, you know, obliterate the stock for them.
Nick
Yeah. Yeah, it's a weird phenomenon because someone else catching fish doesn't negatively impact my day at all, you know, nor should it, but still, you know, like I said, it's like nuclear launch codes, you know, where the fish are, you know, it's not like it's this big riddle, you know, but people are very proprietary about their fish and especially on their local home waters. Boy, you know, you won't get any information at all. And you see that even on Instagram, some or anywhere on social media, when start blurring out the banks of wherever they're fishing or in the tagged locations you know it's some sort of weird okay I know you're not in a town called Browntown.
Katie
Maybe they are you never know. They all are in Browntown.
Nick
Maybe they are. That's where brown trout are made.
Katie
The fishiest place in America apparently.
Nick
Yeah apparently.
Katie
Well I feel like I'm more secretive of my spots than my flies Like, if someone wants to come to a place that I, you know, I worked hard and found and you know, it's usually very secluded, there's no one there, like, I don't want to tell a bunch of people about it and then have that be super busy the next time I go. That's not really because of the fish, it's just because I don't want to have to be surrounded by a crowd of people, you know, when I'm somewhere. But I don't care about telling someone about Flying Museum. Like, if they're already there, they're standing right next to me, like, they're probably going to eventually figure out what the fish are eating anyway. I don't care if I tell them, you know, this type of caddis is working.
Nick
Yeah, for sure. I mean, fly-wise, I'm an open book, you know, I'll show you our rigs. You know, here's what we're using. Here's how we have it set up. But I will say, and kind of got me thinking about it, is I will be very guarded when I find secret little streams that have wild fish. I think something about wild fish changes the whole thing, at least in Pennsylvania, where a lot of our streams are primarily made up, at least in the Western part of the state, of stocked fish. You know, those fish are fair game. You know, I'll share information, help anyone I can, but boy, if you find those rare streams that have extraordinary wild browns or brookies in them, I mean, that's a gem right there. And you don't necessarily want everybody to go there because in those streams, just a little bit of pressure can push them over the edge, especially when people who might be fishing it, even if they're catch and release anglers, don't know how to properly handle fish.
Katie
Yeah, and that's fair. And that's, it kind of goes along with, you know, not wanting people in your spot, but in a case of a small stream with wild fish or something like that, yeah, a little bit of pressure can actually make an impact on it. How often are you finding little spots like that? Are you frequently seeking out new small streams or are you pretty set, Like here's where we take our trips, that's not going to change?
Nick
Well, the spots that we take most of the trips are probably pretty similar, especially in times like the middle of summer or the middle of winter, whenever certain streams just aren't fishable and especially not fishable with guests on guide trips. But for me, I mean, the hunt never ends for finding those little streams that have wild fish. In a lot of cases, those are the streams that I'll go recreationally fish. I don't necessarily, I mean, it doesn't do anyone any good for me to go rake the spots I guide on my days off. You know what I mean? What good is it me going and hammering down on fish that I want our guests to catch the next day or the next week or even the next month? So for me, the challenge and the fun is finding those off the beaten path spots that have wild fish that I wouldn't necessarily guide for any number of reasons. Maybe there isn't a strong fish population to make it worthwhile. Maybe it's inaccessible. Maybe it's just really tight bow casting under mountain laurel conditions. That sort of thing exists pretty frequent in our small streams here. So that's probably the divide is if I'm going to guide it, I don't fish it very much on my own.
Katie
Right. You got to find the balance between not fishing it too much and worsening the fishing, but also you got to get to know the area. So if you find a new spot, you know, I feel like you got to go there a couple of times before, before you're going to be confident enough to guide it.
Nick
Yeah. Talk about hardships. my research and development for work is going fishing and finding new spots.
Katie
Sounds rough.
Nick
Someone's got to do it. Someone's got to do it.
Katie
Do you have a lot of people requesting wild fish in particular or is it usually a species-based thing? Like what do people care about when they come in? Or numbers? Like what, you know, when someone comes in and they're like here's what I want for my day.
Nick
Yeah, most of the trips they just say, "I trust you, take me to wherever it's fishing best. You know, on a rare occasion, I'll have someone come in that says, "Hey, look, I know we could probably stay local "and catch more fish, "but I'd rather do something to catch less fish, "but if they're wild." And that's especially true of brook trout. We have our brook trout specific trips where people will come in from the Midwest or even Colorado, further West in California, even we've had some folks where they say, "Hey, this is a brook trout in its native range. that's cool, I want to catch that. I will sacrifice numbers of fish elsewhere, but I want to catch a native fish in its range, which is obviously a trend in fly fishing itself, the idea of trying to catch native fish in their native range. But that's probably where we're at. If people don't want to do that, then it's typically, they trust us, take me to wherever it's fishing best.
Katie
Do you have a preference of which type of person you get? Like do you want someone who comes in and is like, I just want to catch a native fish because that excites you or, or do you hope someone comes in and they're like, I just want to catch anything and have a great day because that's like an easy softball throw for you.
Nick
That's certainly the best, you know, low expectations, um, certainly helps. Um, you know, the native fish strips are really cool. I love Brook trout. I love everything about them from the way they look to where they live, to how they behave, to how aggressive they are. I mean, they're just such a perfect encapsulation of the Appalachian region that they're a ton of fun to go after. But an equally fun trip is just the beginner. There's nothing quite like having a beginner who's maybe their first day ever even holding a fly rod and seeing that transformation in our three, four, five, maybe even a full day trip, eight or nine hours, to see where they start to where they end. How it's almost a foreign object they're holding in the beginning of the trip and they say, boy, you know, I don't think I'm ever going to get this. And then you just see them progress and you see them mature right before your eyes with your instruction, of course, that's a ton of fun. To see someone catch their first fish on a fly rod, I mean, that's something that I get to recreate hundreds of times a year. And that's just really special to me.
Katie
Yeah, beginners were always my favorite when I was guiding. It's always nice to have someone who knows what they're doing 'cause you don't have to work as hard. But I also feel like you kind of have to work harder because now you've got pre-existing expectations to meet, especially like when I was up in the mountains, we're fishing for fish that are like maybe eight to 10 inches long. Like, we're not fishing for monsters. And you know, people come in and be like, I want to catch a big fish. It's all I care about. And I'm like, well, I don't really know how to help you here. Um, because that's not what exists here. And then they'd be disappointed.
Nick
Yeah. Well, and if he, and that's something that definitely comes up with our trips too, it's products of their environments. You know, I tell them, you know, big is a relative term. A 20 inch steelhead is a small one. A 10 inch brook trout is a huge one. So it's a moving target that word big and as it should be because it depends on the fish, it depends on their environment. There are so many factors that go into it that that's a tough one. When someone comes in and says, I want to catch big fish. And I say, well, yeah, me too, but they are what they are. And that's okay because a big fish, a trophy fish is all relative.
Katie
Yeah, that kind of goes back to the culture stuff we were talking about where have you heard the, the like progression of fly fishing that they talk about. They have one for, it seems like everything, they've got one for hunting and everything where it's like, you know, when you're in stage one, you just want to catch a fish. Like that's all that matters. And I feel like that's a really wholesome level to see someone else in. It's like when you take a beginner fishing and they're just astonished that they landed, you know, an eight inch rainbow. And to you it wouldn't mean much, but to them it means everything. But then they progress into the next stage where it's like, now I want to catch all the fish and they want to catch like all the hugest fish. And then by the end it's like they just want to go fishing. And I feel like I really like tiers one and usually four or five where I like it when someone gets excited about their very first fish or just catching a fish and I like it when someone just has a good time being out there. I tend not to enjoy spending as much time with the people who are stuck in, "I need to catch as many fish as possible" or "I need to catch the biggest fish possible and I'll go to any lengths to do that." As much as I can appreciate the effort that goes into that. I don't know. It's just not my style.
Nick
Yeah, I love whenever we get to the point in a trip where someone is content.
Katie
Yeah.
Nick
That's the word that I love most on trips because when someone is just blissfully content with our day, to me, there is no greater compliment to a guide of any sort, hunting guide, rafting guide, fishing guide, whatever the case may be, whenever your guests are content. I think your job so well and they can appreciate what you've done so much that that's just that's the sweet spot and those phases that you mentioned it's interesting because I'm kind of going through that myself a little bit and to cross over into hunting. I'm a relatively new archery hunter so I'm kind of going through those phases in archery hunting that I would have gone through years ago in fly fishing and it's neat to be on the other end of that for the first time in a while and kind of see through that scope again.
Katie
I don't want to sound like I'm talking down on those areas where you're kind of stuck in. I want to just go all out and catch all the fish because like you said, I'm kind of in that phase with hunting as well where I've had enough success to be past that hurdle, but I'm not so successful in my past that I can just be happy being out there. I am very aware of whether I've been doing well or not at any given time. And I feel like in fishing I've progressed past that, but it's still fun to sometimes jump back into that mode where if you're in a place that has huge fish, you can kind of get yourself back into that mindset for a sec and be like, "I want to catch a monster today."
Nick
Yeah, for sure. For us in Pennsylvania, that comes up with steelheading. you see those fish in there and they're huge, you weren't just happy to be there. I mean, it's not like, "Boy, this is just a really fun December day in Pennsylvania." It's not that. It's, "Let's hammer down and catch some fish." I'm guilty of that when I go on my own there. Whereas trout, I can be happy just going out. Or maybe if I catch one in a really difficult spot and I had to work for it and I had to make a difficult cast and landing it was a challenge, Those are the fish that really gets me going for trout. But for steelhead, I kind of slip back into that, let's see how much damage we can do. Just because they're so big.
Katie
Yeah, and I think that that is actually a good point, is that you're almost a product, like in general, you do move through those levels, where at first you're just excited to catch anything, and then by the end you're just happy to be out. But you can kind of jump back and forth between the different levels based on where you are. So if I go somewhere that's known for giant fish, I might catch a 10-inch fish and be disappointed because I went in being like, "I'm going to catch something huge today." Whereas if I go somewhere where it's, you know, it's mostly 5-inch fish and I catch a 10-inch or something, I'm thrilled, you know. Or if you go somewhere that is known for having a ton of fish and you don't catch much. Like normally I'd be happy to be out, but if I went there expecting to catch a lot, now suddenly I want to catch a lot.
Nick
Yeah, no doubt. I'll tell you where that really just messes with your whole system is a new adventure I'm trying to get into, musky fishing. That is just, it's like, "Oh, well, I might as well be happy to be out because if I'm predicating my days based on how many fish I even encounter, boy, I don't know, that wouldn't be the sport for everybody." That's kind of to your point. It's interesting how that target can change just based on what we're going for. whether it's trout, steelhead, musky, bass, you know, depending on the fish species. For example, like whenever you come home, maybe you're just happy to be out on your home waters again and or maybe you say, "Hey look, I have one day to fish this river that I loved growing up, so I want to see how many bass I can catch.”
Katie
Yeah, and I'm a big sucker for the nostalgia piece of coming home because I think I mentioned it, but when I came home, like I was just spin fishing. I As I was doing it, I was kind of glad that I was using the spin gear because it's like if I'm gonna go back And you know relive the good old days. I might as well do it the way I You know had it It's like I don't really have much of a desire to do any spin fishing out here because I've never done it out here I've only fly fished and so even if I'm fishing for bass, I'm gonna do it on a fly rod But when I go home, it's kind of nice to just I don't know settle back into into the muscle memory of how I grew up
Nick
Isn't that part of the joy of fishing is that it can be as simple as we want it, right? You know, I mean right some days I get sick of having these elaborate rigs with tippet rings and Tapering down to 6x leader and you know, it's just the rigs get so complicated that some days I like saying, you know what? I'm just gonna snip it all off and throw us at 16 Adams or whatever happens happens And it's just kind of nice to sort of hit reset and go back to neutral and recharge the batteries
Katie
I was just talking about that to someone the other day because I feel like I go back and forth between, you know, I want to learn all the hatches and I want to know all the flies that match all the insects and I want to be able to look under a rock and know exactly where to go in my box and get just the right thing. And then sometimes I just want to make it work with whatever I feel like fishing that day and I will fish that fly until it works. And I kind of lean toward that more often. Like I like having the knowledge but I almost like having the knowledge separate from fishing. I find it interesting to learn about the life cycles of the insects, but then when I go fishing, I want to just relax and not even bother with all the knowledge and just throw on a caddis and see if it works.
Nick
Yeah. I'd never thought of it like that, but that's pretty... I like the knowledge of it, like you, but it's like, "Well, I don't need to know all of the entomology behind it in order to have a good day because this prince nymph will probably catch just as many as my exact midge pattern.
Katie
Yeah, like it's fun to have the knowledge, but I almost like compartmentalize it where fishing is fishing and I wanna have the knowledge that relates to fishing 'cause we obviously find fish and gear and all that kind of stuff interesting, but it's kind of the same reason I'm not a huge like gear junkie. Like I've got what works and I don't really care about the latest and greatest thing 'cause odds are it works only slightly better than last year's model.
Nick
Well, I think you mentioned a phrase that we need to, everybody needs to remember sometime, it's fishing. You know what I mean? It almost feels like we wanna make it so complicated at times and it's this giant equation that everybody's trying to figure out, but you can just grab a handful of flies and then whatever rod you have handy and go catch some fish. I mean, it can be that simple some days. Some days it's fun trying to figure stuff out, especially on technical waters, tail waters in particular. That can be fun. You know, the challenge of it is fun, but it's also nice to just say, "Hey, it's fishing, so I'm just gonna go throw whatever and probably catch something," and that's fine.
Katie
I was gonna ask if that's a fly fishing specific thing, but I don't think it is. 'Cause I mean, I feel like, you know, competitive bass anglers are probably some of the most knowledgeable fishermen of their quarry out there. You know, they can pinpoint what they're supposed to be doing, you know, dead on. But I feel like there's, I feel like, you know, in general, there's kind of that uppity nature that's associated with fly fishing. And sometimes I get that feeling from the whole, like I need to know the exact pattern. And maybe that also comes with tying because I'm sure once you start tying, you start to learn what makes each pattern its own thing. But I feel like there's a lot of people that don't want to admit that they just want to be out there and it doesn't really matter that they know exactly what fly they're using or the name of the fly.
Nick
Well, there's nothing I love talking about more than fly tying.
Katie
I'm not trying to get into fly tying.
Nick
Nick DelVecchio noted fly tire.
Katie
The one topic we're not supposed to talk about.
Nick
But I'll tell you, most of the flies that we fish are what you'd call quote unquote junk. What the fly fishing community might call is junk. And some of them are just so effective that it's like, well, why would you bother going through the time and all these specific patterns. And by junk, you know, I don't just mean stuff like eggs and squirmy worms, and maybe moth flies are even a little too fringe for me, I don't really dabble in that. But, you know, I mean, if you just throw a straight up attractor patterns, if I'm throwing hares, ears, pheasant tails, princes, just stuff that isn't really anything in particular, but it kind of looks like enough stuff to work, I mean, you can present your fly in a way that that's good enough, and that's okay. I probably don't need to know exactly what variation of dubbing is on this caddis casing.
Katie
Right. That brings me to something that I have debated this in my head so many times and I've never actually come up with an answer. Something that some people don't consider a fly and some people do. We'll take a squirmy worm. Some people will argue that, And well it works and it's extremely effective so I'm going to use it. And I agree with that. You know if I go out I want to catch fish and I want to use what's working. I'm not going to deliberately put some terrible thing on my line just to make a point. At the same time if you're trying to make it as easy as possible you could switch techniques to something like your own thing which I don't have a lot of interest in. and I like the aspect of playing with the line and managing the cast and everything like that. And so it's like on one hand, you're trying to be as effective as possible by using whatever works best, but then you're also limiting yourself by not doing what's probably gonna catch the most fish. For example, like you're a new thing, it's probably gonna catch the most fish at any given time.
Nick
Everybody's got a code, right? I mean, everybody has a point where they say, I'm not going any further. And one of the things that I found interesting is it seems like the pendulum has swung so far in the Euro nymphing, contact nymphing, whatever you want to call it, direction that it's almost like indicator fishing is harder. Right? I mean, Euro nymphing, contact nymphing, when done correctly is just so darn effective that And it's almost like the old stigma that using an indicator is easier is untrue now. It's proven to be incorrect because those people just crush fish with those contact rigs and especially whenever they have 100 feet of monofilament and they've just eliminated the fly line altogether. And in some cases that's a legal way to fly fish. And that's fine if people want to do that, to your point. I mean, if that's what they want to do, then, you know, fine. But it's almost like the traditional, quote, unquote, traditional method of, I'm going to use fly line, and then I'm going to have a seven and a half foot or nine foot liter, and I'm going to have an indicator on there, and that's how I'm going to nymph. It's harder. It's harder to do that now. In terms of flies, I don't know. I don't know what makes, that'd be a whole other topic is what makes a fly fair or not fair. because you'll have the dry fly purists obviously that go out and say, "Well, that's all I'm going to use." Some people swear off squirmy worms or mop flies or eggs or anything subsurface. Like I said, everybody has a code. I don't know how we come up with our own, but everybody lives by it.
Katie
I'm sure we've already alienated like half the audience here, but we can just finish that out. Just get rid of the rest of them too. In reference to, for example, the fact that neither one of us is particularly interested in Euro-nymphing, obviously not, you know, opposed to anyone who wants to do it, it's totally fine, just not for us. But then I also get annoyed with someone who's like a super dry fly purist for, and they have the exact same mindset I probably do about something like Euro-nymphing, where I'm like, "Hey, I just, you know, I'm not that interested in it because I want to manage the line and, you know, make long casts and things." And so it's just not for me. But then a dry fly purist could say, "I just really enjoy working a dry fly. It's just what I like." But I still hear that and I'm like, "Uppity." I'm somewhere right in the middle and as much as I think I'm right, it's like I'm doing this exact same thing as plenty of the other people that I'm getting annoyed with.
Nick
Yeah. It's like you do you. That's the mantra that everybody should have. If someone says, "I only fish with dry flies," like you, I'm like, "Okay, nerd." But if they're like, "Hey, I know nymphs will catch more, but I just love dry fly fishing so much. I'm like, okay, that's cool You know you do you if that's what you want to do, you know that you're sacrificing numbers of fish But if you like it that much then hey go nuts, you know, you bought your license same as me
Katie
Right, and maybe it's just the attitude that people take about it Like for example, if I see someone you're an in thing I'm not gonna walk up and be like, oh this isn't even fly fishing Like I don't care like you do you and I it's not for me but to each to each our own and it's fine and if someone is like, "Hey, I just I like fishing dry flies. I find it the most fun." It doesn't make me feel bad at all. I don't have any sort of negative reaction to that, but if I hear, "Nymphing isn't even fly fishing," then suddenly I get defensive. I'm sure that's kind of how it is for any of these techniques. Tenkara, too. I'm sure the Tenkara people are probably really sick of being made fun of at this point. I'm like, "I don't care what you do." I mean, to each their own.
Nick
That's an interesting take because you report every post on Facebook where we have squirmy worms in fish's mouth.
Katie
I'm not even on Facebook, so I know you're lying.
Nick
There you go.
Katie
I'm just on there to report you. I just go on daily to make sure you're up to code.
Nick
Katie Burgert has burner accounts to report wildlife outfitter's pictures.
Katie
That's what I do in my lunch at work.
Nick
Yeah.
Katie
But yeah, I don't know where that line's drawn between what I would deem fly fishing, what other people would deem fly fishing because at the end of the day if you're using a fly it's fly fishing but then you get into the debate of what's a fly and I don't really care I'm kind of like if it's tied on the hook it's it's a fly.
Nick
Yeah and for me personally I mean I love using squirmy worms because I feel like at the start I could say well it's a worm and there are worms in nature but then I love using purple ones
Katie
Yeah but there's also not I mean you get like a bright purple Adams too. Well,
Nick
and you know acid mine runoff is a huge deal in Pennsylvania. I don't know maybe that's causing some sort of radioactive worms. Maybe it's true.
Katie
Yeah I don't know. I like thinking about it but I don't think it's actually practical to because none of this is ever going to be solved. You know like it's not like us talking about this is going to suddenly like write the book on what's correct. And this is obviously just us kind of BSing about what we think, but I don't I don't even know what I assume the general gist is out there of like where people fall on this debate. Because like I know how I feel and I know how my friends feel and I feel like usually we're in the same, roughly the same boat. But I don't even understand or I don't even know what the general consensus is out there of all these topics.
Nick
In Pennsylvania I would say that in a lot of cases our angling community is more open to that sort of thing because I think proportionally speaking a lot more of our anglers spend time fishing with bait or lures or other methods that aren't fly fishing. So you know whenever someone on the stream is running around fishing with corn or power bait it's a little easier to accept someone fishing a moth fly.
Katie
Yeah.
Nick
Which isn't to say there's anything out of bounds with someone that wants to fish with power bait, but I just think the prevailing sentiments being what they are in our East Coast culture, that they don't care as much about the purest nature of fly fishing because we all spend so much time around other anglers using corn or salted minnows or anything else and it's like well hey, the next time I see a glob of Sherbert power bait or corn floating down and being a staple of a trout's diet makes me feel a little better about throwing squirmy worms.
Katie
Yeah, I think you're right about that. I think I get the impression that out east the mentality is a little bit different. I don't know how the demographics are skewed in terms of where in the country has the highest concentration of fly fishermen. I get the impression that a lot out here. I meet a lot more fly anglers out here than I did back east. I don't know if that's part of it, too. When it's overly saturated, you're trying to carve your niche and trying to subconsciously exclude people that you don't deem worthy. Whereas, if you're just struggling to even find someone else who fly fishes, you're much more likely to be like, "I don't care how you do it. I just need a buddy."
Nick
No doubt. And I think there, I think there are def, there's definitely a strong fly fishing presence here in Pennsylvania. Um, you know, but I think it also goes into how the trout program is managed at the state level. And that's maybe a whole other, whole other can of worms there.
Katie
Can of, can of squirmy worms.
Nick
Yeah, can of squirmy worms or regular worms. This is, it's all inclusive, not alienating anyone, but you know, I mean, it's just the way it's managed and the regulations being what they are, I think also plays into what people, what methodology people use to try to go catch a trout. Whereas I think in Colorado, it's a lot more geared towards conservation and the protection of trout, where here in Pennsylvania, you see stocking trucks going by all spring and summer, that's a bucket of fun, you know, whatever the phrase is fishing is fun one bucket at a time. You know I think that's a very telling strategy there at the state level of how they deem priorities in terms of trout resource management conservation practices etc. and I think that kind of goes hand in hand with those trends that you mentioned seeing more proportionally speaking more bait lure anglers than maybe fly anglers.
Katie
Yeah and also with the seasons. That was a big change coming out here because I remember growing up, first day of trout, I don't know when it is, usually what like March or April-ish? Is that right?
Nick
Right after Easter usually.
Katie
Yeah and you'd be like shoulder to shoulder with people on the streams that they were stocking. It was, you know, everyone knew which streams were getting stocked and when it was happening and then that morning at 8 a.m. shoulder to shoulder, everyone with every technique is out there and you're kind of like you're squished in there with people of all walks of life. And here it's a year-round season. You could look up stocking reports, but it's not like somewhere gets stocked and suddenly everyone in the state's flocking to this one stream to catch all those fish. So you're a lot more isolated from everybody.
Nick
Yeah, and that's tough. The opening day of trout season is tough. I actively try to not have guests book on that day just because it is so suffocating. And even that whole weekend really. That's where all the part-timers will come out. You know, they just fish two days a year, catch their limit, throw them in the freezer, and then forget about fishing until the next year's opening day. Which, hey, I mean they buy their license, they can do whatever they want, but it is tough. It is tough not having that all year round. Luckily, certain streams in Pennsylvania are open year-round to fishing, and most of those streams hold wild fish. Any stream that has what they call a class A designation is actually open to fishing year-round, which is really cool, as are specially regulated areas, fly fishing only, delayed harvest, catch and release, all of those types of streams are also open year-round to fishing. So it's nice to have those options, but like you said, for the most part, a lot of our stock streams are shut down from March 1st until opening day.
Katie
Now this might be a dumb question, especially from someone who grew up there, but I didn't do much trout fishing at home before I moved out. If it's a closed season, but it's a closed season on just streams that are designated trout waters, because you can catch trout, I mean, like up near French Creek, there were trout in there, but it's not like it's closed, you know, you could catch one by accident.
Nick
Yeah, so it's a specific type of waterway that they're dealing with there, the one that they call the approved trout water. And the state of Pennsylvania makes it really nice and really easy. They have an interactive map application on their website where you can go on and see all of the highlighted streams of any particular designation. So there should be no question. They have it in the summary book as well that they hand out with your license but it's really convenient to be able to go on their map resources and say I want to fish stream X. Can I is illegal.
Katie
Do you know why trout fishing is so separated from other types of fishing in Pennsylvania because not only just the season but like you have to get a trout stamp. And that's not the same out here and I haven't found a single western state that does something similar to that. Why is trout so isolated.
Nick
I don't have any idea and that's a good question. I would actually be very curious to know what the answer is from someone state level. Because that is a unique permit to Pennsylvania, I also have not found that to be the case in many other places. And now recently we also have to purchase a Lake Erie permit as well if we want to fish the tributaries to Lake Erie for steelhead or the trout that they stock in there. So there does seem to be a few more permits that are required here compared to some other places. I don't know why. That'd be interesting to know.
Katie
Is the Lake Erie one just anything that flows directly into Lake Erie? When does it stop becoming a tributary to Lake Erie?
Nick
It's got to be a water that goes into Lake Erie so the tributaries, they flow directly in or the tributaries to the tributaries or the lake itself. So basically anything in the Lake Erie watershed in Pennsylvania, and you know we don't have very much coastline so it's not like this giant swath of land, but anything that's going to eventually flow into Lake Erie, you need the permit. And they combo it now with the trout and salmon, so you can save a couple bucks or whatever. It turns out to be to just get a Lake Erie trout and salmon. But there's all sorts of regulations governing it, and that's relatively new, just a few years.
Katie
I've heard a couple states... I don't know, actually, I don't even know if it's a couple states. I've heard at least one state, I'm not even sure which one it was, is considering doing like a voluntary stamp for different species now to raise money for specifically for conservation species. So you could go buy, you know, you could buy a regular fishing license and go fish for whatever, but you can also voluntarily add on, you know, however much it costs, walleye stamp. And it's just, if you acknowledge that you're going to be mostly fishing for walleye and you want, you know, some extra money to go toward that specific species, you can buy like a voluntary stamp. That would be the equivalent of the trout stamp in Pennsylvania, but it's entirely voluntary instead of mandatory. >>
Nick
And actually, Pennsylvania just instituted a few of those last year.
Katie
Maybe that's the state I'm thinking of then.
Nick
Yeah, well, because the few that I know of, one is for musky habitat, so you can get a voluntary musky permit. I'd like to get one, but I'd like to catch one first, so maybe one day. And then you can get a wild trout voluntary permit. But for a lot of anglers, they're kind of in wait-and-see mode to see where those dollars go and just make sure they actually go towards the cause that they're earmarked for since it is so new. That's a new program just rolled out last year, the voluntary permit. So it'll be interesting to see what happens with that in the future and if in fact those dollars and cents do go to those causes and you can see a tangible impact for the better then maybe those voluntary stamps will become more popular across the country.
Katie
Yeah I'd be pretty enticed to do something like that if I could see, "Hey, this year we raised $100,000." I don't even know if that's a reasonable guess, but like $100,000 and here are the five muskie projects that this money's going toward. Here's the problem. Here's where the money's going and what's being fixed and what we expect to come out of that. Is it a set cost or is it like you can donate any amount of money and get this stamp?
Nick
They are a set cost. I don't know what they are offhand. I don't think much, 25, 30 bucks, something like that. I'm sure they wouldn't take your money if you wanted to donate more.
Katie
I don't know how I feel about that. I kind of see why they just want to set them out, like, "Hey, do you want to buy this thing or not?" On the other hand, I kind of feel like they should say, "Hey, anyone who wants to donate anything, we can give you this little unofficial stamp on your license that just says, 'Hey, I donated to Musky Habitat or Walleye Habitat or what have you,' instead of saying you have to donate $30 or bust.
Nick
Yeah, and in some cases at that point wouldn't you just donate to a conservation group directly tied with those fish? Muskies Inc., Trout Unlimited, I mean there are enough conservation groups for every trout and salmon and muskie and every other fish species out there that if you really cared about a cause you could just go directly through a conservation group and just skip the middleman of the state agencies altogether.
Katie
That's true. you could always buy the stamp and then donate more or if you wanted to give less just give directly to some sort of organization. Is there an organization for pretty much every species out there at this point?
Nick
It seems like it. I don't know. I'm sure there's one for bass but I don't know of one off hand. You're the warm water specialist.
Katie
I should know. There's a Walleyes Unlimited.
Nick
Yeah right. So there I mean there I'm sure there is one for bass so it
Katie
I’m sure there’s several for bass probably.
Nick
Yeah so it kind of seems like every species is represented somewhere with some groups so it's nice to have that sort of conservation backbone for all the fish species in Pennsylvania knowing that there's someone looking out for their betterment and habitat improvement and strategic planning for the future and every other obstacle that might come up that knowing those fish are safeguarded is pretty important
Katie
Yeah for sure. I would consider doing something like that if it came to Colorado. On one hand, it's nice. We've just got the single license, hassle-free. It's always a pain coming home and having to navigate, "What exactly do I need?" I remember last time I came home, I was trying to decide between a one-day license and a three-day license and they cost the same amount. I was like, "Well, I'm obviously going to buy a three-day license." There's just so many different options on the menu when I come home. Out here, we do have a five-day option and stuff like that, but it's pretty just you buy your license and you can go fishing. But I would consider I would consider getting some of those extra stamps if that were an option to to put money toward those species.
Nick
And it's neat like you said if you got an extra sticker on your license or some sort of identification that you supported that cause that's a neat you know identifier that you are into the conservation aspect of things and into the betterment of the fish species and That's a little more incentive, I think, for anglers to want to get involved with that stuff.
Katie
Yeah, I wonder if a state took like a patch or a pin approach. I mean, I know Pennsylvania has like patches for their species, but I think they just do like a patch each year and they just pick a fish to put on it. But I don't know, what if they had some sort of collectible, you get an actual stamp, like a duck stamp, how that's collectible. You get some sort of collectible pin or patch or stamp if you donate to that cause, so you could cover yourself in musky patches.
Nick
Yeah. Well, they used to back in my day.
Katie
Your tweed wearing, pipe smoking—
Nick
Yep. They used to actually, the fishing license actually did have a stamp on it. I don't know if you remember that, but the trout and salmon, they would pick an art print every single year and that would be what was on your license. You actually got the stamp. And then some years ago, I don't know, right around the year 2000 maybe, they got away from that and then you just get this very bland piece of paper from Walmart or Field & Stream or wherever else that just says Pennsylvania fishing license but that was the way of it for a few decades at least was the pick and art print everybody could submit their trout and salmon stamp for the year and they'd vote on it and that was what everybody had on their license so going back to something like that might be a nice way of paying homage to those who support those voluntary stamps.
Katie
Yeah and I can even attest to the fact that so I think it's probably the same now I haven't gotten a an annual Pennsylvania license in a while but at least when I had them it was that if you got the regular license it had a shape of Pennsylvania on it if you got the trout stamp you'd get a picture of a trout on it and I even remember it I mean not that anyone was caring but in my head I was like I want people to see that I've got a trout on mine, you know? Like I didn't even really fish for trout much, but I wanted to have a picture of a fish on my license, not a picture of Pennsylvania, so I would pay that like nine bucks, even if I was only going out for like half a day.
Nick
It's kind of like a badge of honor almost.
Katie
Yeah, like I'm getting the license plus the extra, you know? So I think if that is enough to motivate me to get an outline of a fish on my license instead of an outline of my state, then having like an actual piece of art to display what you're fishing I mean, I think people would go for that.
Nick
Yeah, I think so too.
Katie
Well, I think that's a good place to wrap up because we've jumped around from culture to all the people we hate to Pennsylvania fishing regulations.
Nick
Yeah, probably go on about any one of those topics for a whole other show.
Katie
I know, if there's any other groups that we haven't alienated, we can think of some others and then come on in.
Nick
Yeah, maybe someone will let us know.
Katie
Yeah, why don't you plug yourself, you know, your social media, your website, outfitter, anything you want people to know.
Nick
Yeah, anyone looking for Wildwood Outfitters can find us on our website wildwoodoutfitterspa.com or Instagram @wildwoodoutfitters or Facebook at wildwoodoutfitterspa. We run lots of blog posts every week, blast them out on all our social medias, latest catches, latest trip reports, you name it, we've got it on the website so give us a look and anytime anyone's in Pennsylvania we'd love to spend the day with you out on the water.
Katie
Yeah and remember that if you're on your Facebook page you will see lots of downvotes from all my burner accounts on there just in case you're looking for a nice a nice laugh and participate in the hate.
Nick
Some people are worried about election meddling and whatnot. Nope. People are worried about me throwing squirmy worms on my guide trip so yeah
Katie
I’ve been I've been tampering with your uh with your fly promotions. All right well thanks a lot Nick for coming on I really appreciate it and hope you have a good steelhead season coming up
Nick
yeah thanks a lot for having me all
Katie
right and that's a wrap on episode number six as always if you liked what you heard go ahead and head over to the wild initiative podcast and you can subscribe there you'll get my show every Thursday as well as all of Sam's other shows that come out throughout the week. You can also find my episodes on the website, fishuntamed.com, in addition to weekly backcountry fly fishing articles. And you can find me on social media @fishuntamed on Instagram or Katie Burgert on Go Wild. So until next time, take care.
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