Ep 4: Anticipating a First Summer of Guiding in Alaska, with John Kelly Coffman
John Kelly Coffman is a fly fishing guide who has guided for several outfitters throughout Colorado and just got back from his first summer guiding in Alaska. This episode was recorded right before he left for his season up north, and John Kelly talks about his upcoming summer. This will be his first year up there, and we discuss his expectations, fishing styles in Alaska, and photography.
Instagram: @jcoffman214
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Intro
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast where we talk all things fishing, conservation, and the outdoors. Today on the show I'm joined by John Kelly Coffman who just got back from his first summer guiding in Alaska. All right welcome to episode number four of the Fish Untamed podcast. Today on the show I'm talking to John Kelly Coffman. John Kelly and I used to guide together a handful of years ago and he actually just got back from his first summer guiding up in Alaska. So this episode was recorded a couple months ago, right before he left for his trip, I think it was two days before he left. And so this is more of an expectations episode where we discuss how he got the position and what his expectations are for the upcoming summer, having never guided up there before. So we also get into his website, reflectionsonthefly.com, where he kind of mixes his passions for fly fishing and photography. So without further ado, here's my chat with John Kelly Coffman. Hey, John Kelly, how's it going?
John Kelly
It's going well, Katie. Good to hear from you. I'm glad to be here. And how are you doing?
Katie
I'm good. Not a lot of fishing going on with runoff right now, but have you been getting at it all?
John Kelly
Yeah, so You know, I since the start of the year I started logging days for the first time ever actually and I've hit 60 days so far this year Unfortunately in the last month I had it logged as many as I was for the first couple months of the year But I was getting out real consistently early on and more school, stuff like that has been preventing me from getting on the water as much as I'd hoped.
Katie
So are you already out of school or are you still in school for the year right now?
John Kelly
So I'm done for the year and I'll return next fall.
Katie
Okay, so are you just hanging out then until, I guess we'll get around to that, but before you head to Alaska are you just kind of hanging out in the meantime?
John Kelly
Yeah, so I've got actually two more full days here in Dallas before I fly out Friday morning. So it's a pretty quick turnaround in Dallas. And prior to that, I was just, I've been prepping for Alaska, tying flies. So trying to hang out and get some downtime, some quality time with friends and family, but it seems like it's been a quick transition from finals and papers and final projects for school to preparing for this upcoming season.
Katie
For sure. So just to kind of preface what this whole conversation is gonna be about, you're heading to Alaska for the summer pretty soon it sounds like. And this is gonna be your first summer up there after a couple of years guiding elsewhere. So I guess the kind of the goal of this talk is to, we'll talk about you, but also kind of get your expectations of what you're expecting to come from this first year guiding in Alaska, and then hopefully down the road, maybe do a follow-up and see how reality, I guess, compared to your expectations, especially since it's, I'm sure it's gonna be a lot different than what you've experienced before.
John Kelly
Sure.
Katie
You've guided for a couple of years now, it sounds like. You and I worked together for, I think, two summers, more or less, and then it sounds like you went off and guided in Crested Butte, So you want to tell me a little bit about that? Because I haven't heard much about your third summer guiding.
John Kelly
Yeah, yeah, that's right. So this past summer I was in Crested Butte and that was really an awesome experience. It's cool to get around different places, particularly in Colorado with fisheries that have so much to offer. And it was definitely a transition coming from the Estes Park area where we had worked. wasn't spending as much time on Alpine lakes, more big water like the Gunnison, as well as the Taylor River and the East River, you know, the three primary rivers in the Gunnison Valley. So yeah, it was different as far as the fishing, but there was definitely one thing that stood out that was majorly different than the two years past in Estes Park. So in Estes Park, as you know, we all live in one house. it was almost like a guy's lodge. Everyone that worked for Sasquatch under one roof. So this last year in Crested Butte, I actually was able to interview over the phone with a fly shop owner and I had the job, but the next step was to find housing. So looked everywhere, looked on, you know, Facebook groups for Crested Butte and Gunnison, couldn't find anything within a reasonable price. I mean, they're practically having a housing crisis there and having a hard time housing seasonal workers. But anyways, what I landed on was actually just deciding to buy a rooftop tent for my car. And so I lived out of my car for the entire summer and camped every night. So that was definitely a big change compared to living with the, I guess it was usually like 12 or 13 other guides in the Sasquatch house.
Katie
Pretty full, full rooms. Pretty full.
John Kelly
Yeah, definitely.
Katie
Is that pretty standard for them to, like they don't provide housing for you and you're just kind of on your own?
John Kelly
Correct, correct. A lot of the guides there, you know, they live there year round. So it was unique for me to be going up there for just a season compared to the other guides.
Katie
What are those guides doing year round? Are they guiding year round or is it that they're seasonal like you and then do something else in the winter?
John Kelly
Right. That seems to be the big question for guides in general, right? And for the guides that I was working with in Crested Butte, it definitely varied. For example, two of the guys in my shop were guiding in South America during our winter, which is obviously summer in the southern hemisphere. And so they were guiding down in Patagonia. And another just, I mean, it's kind of ambiguous. It's kind of a hard question to answer. Certainly it seems that things tend to get pretty thin financially for a lot of guys in the off-season. But it was kind of cool because I was actually in Kresgebiet for a few weeks over the winter, which is the dead center of the off-season. But the shop was doing something new in that they were capitalizing on all the people coming up over winter break for skiing and whatnot. And we're actually offering ice fishing trips. So that was helping. Yeah, it was providing some income for a few of the guides in the off season. But it seems that it definitely varied from person to person. And I know that, for example, I met up with one of our guides for five days to do some steelhead fishing up in Washington state on the Olympic Peninsula. And he has done that trip every other year. And he spends typically a month to a month and a half up there just camping and fishing.
Katie
Now, is that the trip you wrote about for the Trout Unlimited magazine?
John Kelly
Correct. It was that one.
Katie
Okay, cool. And had you done that before? Had you gone up and steelhead fished or was that your first time up there?
John Kelly
That was my first time. I've got to say, it's been a dream of mine for going on five or six years, ever since I started to explore a little bit the culture and just the pursuit of steelhead, it's really unique specifically just because the winter fishing, you get the opportunity to fish two-handed rods and in really beautiful places and you spend a lot of time fishing and seems like compared to a lot of other species, definitely compared to trout, you spend a lot less time catching.
Katie
So were you swinging flies?
John Kelly
Right, so yeah I mentioned the two-handers but we didn't have a set of two-handers between the two of us so we couldn't really spend a day swinging and we opted for fishing from the boat with nymph rigs. We were fishing egg patterns under an indicator, which purists may cringe at and maybe one day I'll be one of them, but within my means that's what was available. It certainly didn't take away from the experience for me, particularly on my first trip. Just because you're tough enough as it is, right?
Katie
For sure. Well, that's pretty cool. I've gone steelhead fishing, I think, like once or twice, and I think I've landed one. But I think it'd be pretty cool to spend a season making that the primary species to target, because it seems like it takes more than just a trip or two to kind of get into it or claim that you really know anything at all about it. So I think spending a whole season chasing that, that would be kind of like the minimum intro you could have to it and actually get into it.
John Kelly
Big time. Big time. That's what I saw with my buddy Mike who I met up with for that trip. He spent a month to a month and a half there every other year for 10 years. He really expressed the importance of doing that to him because it really mixes things up. It gives me an opportunity to to really get excited about something different. To be in a new setting and where we were was the only rainforest in the contiguous United States. Coastal rivers just like really contrast the setting and the waters that he fishes every year in Crested Butte. So he sees a lot of guys burn out in the Gunnison Valley, a lot of bad attitudes, but he seems to really cherish the time He spends fishing for steelhead and seems to really prioritize that.
Katie
I think that's a really smart way to go because I feel like even after a couple summers just guiding up in Colorado, you start to feel burnt out by a couple months in just doing the same trips every day and seeing the same kinds of people every day. I think that's probably a really great way to go about guiding is to split it up into a couple months in each place and see different people, fish for different things, see different landscapes. It constantly feels new even though it's just fishing everywhere you go.
John Kelly
Totally. I think that's one thing that seems to be daunting on the horizon as someone that aspires to guide as a career, personally. At the same time, the flexibility is really attractive to me because it just means that there's so many places to go and fish to pursue. There's ways to do it DIY. Camping, spending very little, just bumming it and really making memories of a lifetime.
Katie
For sure. Going off of that, I know you had mentioned before that you keep guiding and you'll be getting your degree in sustainability studies, right?
John Kelly
Correct. Yes.
Katie
Are you planning on combining those where you'd be guiding and doing something more with that? Or through for a couple months and then do something else on the side related to that degree? Because I know you want to do something with that as well, but it also sounds like you have no intention of quitting guiding anytime soon.
John Kelly
Right, right. Yeah, that's a good question because there, you know, it could be a distinction in the sense that I have my guide mode and I'm guiding, I'm on the water and helping people catch fish and that I'm kind of limited to that. And then in the offseason I'm working with ecological restoration or helping manage natural resources for government or non-governmental agency and kind of wearing two hats at different times of the year. But the way I would see it is that with the knowledge I have gained and that I will gain in my final year next year at UT, it really seems that the dots are connecting and I feel that my path as a guide is very integrated to the the responsibility I feel to steward and be a voice for the stewardship of our natural resources. So that when I'm guiding, I'm bringing people into this environment where they can experience firsthand the utilitarian aspects of nature. What I mean by that is like, it's inherent that when you're in nature, you experience peace, you can have problems kind of fade away And it forms you into a person that is better than you were before that experience. And as we've seen in the history of conservation in America, it's been the organizations made up of hunters and fishers that have pushed for the stewardship of land and water resources and the like. And so circling back around, providing that experience for people is definitely on par and very connected to my role as a conservationist, just by getting people out there and expressing the need for people to stand up for natural resources and stuff like that. But yet at the same time in the off season, I do hope to be able to do more focused work, really where the rubber meets the road and actually affect change, whether that's ecological restoration or doing policy work for conservation groups, stuff like that.
Katie
So are you more interested in the kind of restoration side, like the boots on the ground science, make sure fish populations are healthy, or are you more interested in the kind of social aspect of like getting people into fly fishing who may come from circumstances that, makes a high barrier to entry or people who just aren't aware of the opportunities out there, or is it kind of a combination of both that drives you?
John Kelly
Yeah, I definitely think it's a combination of both. I certainly have an openness and I guess I'd say that I have a preference that what I would do would encapsulate both perspectives on that, but it's idealistic. I'm definitely open to either and I'll look for opportunities to do both, maybe different times of the year.
Katie
Okay. So talking about Alaska this summer, because I feel like we've got quite a bit to unpack there, Start by telling me how you kind of came across this opportunity, and then we'll kind of go into where you see it going after this point. Because I feel like we all have that one or two friends that have guided in Alaska, and I feel like they all have different stories having been up there. It seems like it's such a wide variety of experiences. So I just kind of want to hear all about your experience so far in terms of connecting with them and kind of what you've learned so far, and then kind of where you see it going.
John Kelly
Totally, totally. I'm glad you asked because it's already before my feet even left the ground as they will in two days. It seems like it's already been a journey in a sense. So it kind of starts back 14 years ago actually. I was there in Alaska on a tour with my extended family in order to celebrate my grandparents 50th anniversary. And I was only nine years old at the time. And I only vaguely remember it. But even though it was 14 years ago, I've had a fascination with Alaska ever since. And I've heard stories secondhand about, oh, well, my, this guy or whoever is guiding in Alaska. And it's like, oh, that sounds awesome. That's gotta be one of the coolest jobs you can have. And I've kind of heard stories of people going up there and guiding for lodges over the years. And even when we were at Sasquatch, we'd talk about like, oh yeah, some of the people that had started here at Sasquatch now guide in Alaska. And it just kind of seemed like something that I should have on my list of goals. And so it's been there for a while. And after some conversations with friends and family earlier this year, I decided that, you know what, it might just be worth a shot to just go ahead and send my resume to some lodges up there. And so that's what I did and had some conversations with head guides, lodge owners, and got in touch with the owner of Intricate Bay Lodge in Southwest Alaska. The owner's named Brian Harry, and we had some great conversation and we had a over the phone interview and he gave me an offer. And I feel very fortunate and truly lucky because he could tell you the same thing. As a guide that has only done wade trips for the last three seasons, I'll be stepping into a role where I'll be rowing guests down river nine miles a day every day. And the only reason I've been able to get my foot in the door was because of that trip I took to Washington State. And when Brian asked me over the phone, "What's your rowing experience?" And I told him, "Well, I've been a wade guide the last three summers. It's never been on the budget to purchase a raft much less a drift boat. And nonetheless, when I was in Washington, I spent five days on the river with the head guy to my fly shop, 36 years old, his name's Mike. And I told Brian that this guy gets tagged by local shops in Southwest Colorado to train their guides how to row. And I told Brian, I said, I spent four or five days rowing with him under his instruction and that I made major strides. And despite my lack of experience overall, he liked the sound of that. And I ensured him that I put in my every effort and I told him I'm a quick learner. And so it's, like I said, I feel very fortunate and lucky to have this opportunity.
Katie
You know, I feel like that's one of those things that, it's kind of like the classic job problem where like you need experience to get a job, but you need a job to get experience.
John Kelly
Right.
Katie
And I feel like rowing is one of those things that you can't really have experience until you've done it, but everyone wants you to have done it before you do it.
John Kelly
Totally.
Katie
So it seems like you kind of lucked out, you know, having someone who does train people to row and like does row, you know, for a living, but you don't have to do it on the job. Like you get to just do it in your own time. The pressure's kind of off. You're just there learning. So I feel like, you know, as much as you don't have as much experience as some people who've done it professionally for a while, having a little bit of experience under your belt and being eager to learn it, at some point, someone's just gotta take a leap of faith and let you row, to let you get good at it.
John Kelly
Right, right. And I'm really thankful that Brian is the one that's given me the grace to do that. It's really crazy just how influential it seems like this five day trip that I took to Washington State in pursuit of steelhead has been so far and will be going into the future because the only reason I was able to go on that trip because I actually forfeited the opportunity to pay dues for the fraternity that I've been a part of at the University of Texas for the last four years and worked it out with my dad to where I wouldn't pay dues and instead I would get a portion of that money to put towards that trip to Washington State.
Katie
Sounds like a pretty good deal.
John Kelly
Yeah. And at the time it was just like, "Oh yeah, steelhead, awesome. That'll be worth it." And believe me, the fishing and the times that I was able to share with Mike were certainly worth it. But I had never dreamed that only by the fact that I went on that trip, got that time, that very little bit of rowing experience would be just enough to get my foot in the door in Alaska for my first season.
Katie
So as far as you know, how will Alaska compare to Colorado or the Pacific Northwest in terms of like the fishing style, like what you'll be targeting, just kind of the style of how an outfitter's run up there versus what you've encountered down here in the lower 48?
John Kelly
You know, I just have to start out and say that the idea that surrounds, you know, Alaska and this upcoming season for me is primarily one that just, I have this thought, it's just like I have no idea what I'm getting myself in for in a lot of senses. A lot is unknown. I have never lived at a fly fishing lodge. I've never guided for a fly fishing lodge. So I've got a lot to learn, but that doesn't mean I can't answer any of those questions. So I do know that we get all five species of Pacific salmon up there. We get large rainbow trout, grayling, dolly varden, there's northern pike in the lakes. And so it's very diverse opportunities. And I think one of the primary differences as far as the fishery goes, is just the presence of millions of tons of salmon coming out of the ocean and through the freshwater systems.
Katie
Just overwhelming compared to what's going on down here.
John Kelly
Yeah, exactly. I mean, the magnitude of – I mean, it's a fact. It is the largest transfer of nutrients from one habitat to another in the world. The sockeye salmon run in southwest Alaska through Bristol Bay is the largest transfer of nutrients from one habitat to another. That is just a magnitude that my words cannot describe, much less on the front end.
Katie
You probably can't picture it.
John Kelly
Oh, yeah. I know. I really can't. It's a gift and a curse that we have a video. In our world, we have opportunities to see places before we go there. I've seen some videos. I've seen the drone shots of a raft, you know, parting what looks like a sea of salmon. And it truly is mind blowing, but being there and seeing that day in and day out, once those salmon are in the system, it's gonna be unlike anything else. And back to the fishing, it really influences the trout fishing. So they'll start keying in on the eggs that the salmon are bringing up. And then towards the latter end of the season, after the salmon have spawned, they're keying in on the flesh of the dead salmon that's drifting downstream. But then also beyond the fact that the adult salmon's presence is a big influence on the trout, it's also the salmon fry and the salmon smolt that are left over from the last year. So they're eating the juvenile salmon. And based on conversations I've had with my boss, you can step into an eddy and millions of salmon fry will swim out into the river, into the main current. And they're so small, they can hardly swim on their own, much less in the fast current. And the rainbow trout just go crazy on them. And there's so many of them that it's hard to effectively imitate them in a way that would cause a rainbow trout to choose your fly over one of the million that's in the river.
Katie
Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask. So kind of on the trout end as well as the salmon end, are the salmon feeding or are you snagging them or using some other technique to catch them?
John Kelly
Right, so as far as I know, we won't be snagging them. And now I've got to say, I've never actually caught a salmon before, which is crazy, crazy to think that I'll be in the center of the largest salmon run in the world having never caught one before.
Katie
I'm sure you'll rack a few up pretty quickly.
John Kelly
Yeah. It seems it'll go that way. But my understanding as an anadromous fish, just like steelhead, that when they enter the fresh water, they're not actually feeding, but their territorial instincts, like their hormones just have them all riled up and angry so that when something gets in their face, they go up and smack it.
Katie
Okay.
John Kelly
I know that we won't be snagging them, but they're not necessarily feeding. It's just such a weird thing, huh?
Katie
And then what about the trout? You made a good point. How do you differentiate your fly from the other million actual fish that look like your fly? I assume you're definitely catching the trout feeding, but how are you separating yourself?
John Kelly
Right. How am I going to target the trout with a fry pattern? That's a big question and honestly, that's a universal challenge when you're fishing the fry. I can only go off conversations I've had with my boss over the phone.
Katie
For sure. Yeah, I understand.
John Kelly
He said that the guys will have guests on the boat and they'll see all those fry flowing down the river in a big ball of bait and they see all these rainbows just swarming them. They're like, "Oh, we should probably put on a fry." And the guy will accommodate them and say, "All right, yeah, we'll tie one on." And they don't catch anything for 15 minutes or however long. And the guy's like, "Yeah, it's probably time to go back to a leech, huh?" And so the guests will just put a leech fly back on and they'll start catching them again. And so there's certainly a way to imitate the fry effectively. But I think oftentimes, I mean, my hunch is that it's got to be presentation even more just pattern, but definitely in combination because you've got to hit the size and the pattern. I've read a little bit about imitating them and it's really important to imitate the barred sides on these salmon fry. Just an arbitrary detail, but I've got a lot more to learn up there.
Katie
It sounds like you're also maybe using patterns that aren't fry, trying to stand out from that group.
John Kelly
Totally. I mean, there's such a diversity of food sources within these systems that even when those fry are in the river, that particular trout may key in on them, but they're also going to eat a leech opportunistically. And the local rivers that we have within range of Intricate Bay Lodge actually host some of the best dry fly action for rainbow trout in all of Alaska. Yeah, and I've talked to a friend that got in Alaska last year, Mike Edwards. Do you know him?
Katie
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
John Kelly
You know Mike. And he was a little surprised that I was tying up size 4, 6, and 8 simulators. And I was telling him, "Yeah, well, we actually have apparently a massive stonefly hatch that goes off in June on the Copper River."
Katie
That's got to be pretty exciting.
John Kelly
Yeah, for sure.
Katie
Just using massive dry flies, especially in a place that you don't really associate with dry flies. That's always a nice treat when you go somewhere and you're like, "Oh, wait. I can actually just throw something on the surface here."
John Kelly
Yeah, it's always a nice treat. That's a great way to put it. Another treat is that I found out recently that the rainbows up there like to eat a mouse swim across the surface, which I've thrown mice here and there, but I've never been in a place where it's like, seems like the go-to. Seems like it could really crush. So I'm excited for that.
Katie
So is that different? Do you know? Maybe you don't know. And I understand that like a lot of this, you'll probably, you know, come back saying like, I had no idea what to expect. But like, when I picture mousing down here, it's generally like summertime, night fishing in a meadow, where there might be like a mouse coming across randomly and you might get like a brown coming out from the undercut bank and snatching it. But I feel like I've seen maybe in Alaska, maybe in Russia, where like mousing is just like kind of the standard all day, every day, like during the day as well and for rainbows. And I don't feel like I picture mousing during the day or for rainbows much like down here. It's kind of like a strictly nighttime activity. Is that your understanding as well it's like a daytime thing there?
John Kelly
Yeah, and you know the one thing to note is that if you're gonna do it in the summer in Alaska or in the summer in Russia, unless you're doing it during the two hours of nighttime, it will be a daytime thing which is an interesting factor. So that's got to play into it in some way because the mice aren't just gonna be active for two hours of the day. They might be running around you know while the lights out a lot more often than they would in say Colorado where they can take advantage of the cloak of darkness day in and day out.
Katie
I didn't even think about that. You won't have much nighttime up there, will you?
John Kelly
No. Yeah. That's definitely one thing that I do remember very well from being there 14 years ago was being in just... It seems like it was obviously not brightest day because the sun stays pretty close to the horizon towards the "night hours." but it's just bright up there. It's crazy.
Katie
Do you know how that affects your hours or how a standard trip goes compared to your standard guided trip down here where you've got regular summer hours from, I don't know, like six to eight?
John Kelly
That's a really good question. I do know that as a guide at this lodge, I'm going to eat breakfast at 6 a.m. and right after breakfast, start preparing for the day's trip, which will include packing gear into float planes. I mean, everything else that goes along with it, getting my gear as well as the guests in order. And then the guests will eat breakfast at 7 a.m., we'll fly out to a local river, float down the river, and then get picked up in the evening and be back at the lodge for dinner. And so it's interesting to even say that we'll be going back in the evening 'cause it'll essentially be as bright as it was at midday.
Katie
Just evening time.
John Kelly
Yeah, evening time. One thing that it does give me a little optimism that I might be able to squeeze in some more fishing time as a full-time guide this summer if so many of my hours are being taken up by trips. Hopefully I can sneak out during "night" and still get some solid action. But who knows how much energy I'll have for that. I mean, it kind of circles back to what I said earlier is that I truly have no idea what I'm getting myself in for in the best way though.
Katie
Yeah, I think that's the way to do it. I think that'll probably set you up for a lot of pleasant surprises and probably some unpleasant surprises, but those ones will make good stories and the pleasant surprises will just be great while it's happening as well.
John Kelly
Totally.
Katie
I'm excited to hear how your expectations differ from reality. When do you get back from Alaska? When does the season go till?
John Kelly
Yeah, so the season goes till October 1st, but I've got one more year to finish at my degree at UT, I'm going to have to cut out a little bit early. But that’ll mean that I'm going to hop on a flight August 29th and then get back to Dallas the morning of the 30th. And it's interesting because school actually starts at UT on August 28th. So I'm going to miss the first few days, but we just have some pretty busy stuff finishing up the month of August at the lodge. And so I was happy to stick around for a little bit longer and it won't be any irreparable damage that will take place just by missing a few days at the start of the semester.
Katie
Just syllabus day.
John Kelly
Just syllabus week.
Katie
But yeah I'm excited to hear how that goes. I always love hearing after people's first season somewhere. I feel like it's just a lot of things you don't expect to hear. Probably a lot of like just good stories along the way. When you were there, you said 14 years ago?
John Kelly
Right.
Katie
So you weren't fly fishing then, right? Because you said even fly fishing for like seven years?
John Kelly
Right. Yeah, it's funny that you ask.
Katie
Yes, I want to hear how you got into fly fishing and also like what you were doing in Alaska before when you were just up there.
John Kelly
Yeah, totally. So starting with when I was in Alaska 14 years ago, we were like on a tour bus just going around all different places and seeing all kinds of stuff. Like we visited Iditarod, husky training and breeding kennel, got to fly over Mount McKinley plane. Just got to see a bunch of random stuff. We did spend one day on the Kenai River floating down and trying to catch rainbow trout. At the time, I was not interested in fishing. I kind of kicked myself.
Katie
Like at all?
John Kelly
Like at all. I wasn't having a good time. We weren't fly fishing, which thank God that our guide didn't have to deal with me, the fly rod in my hand at that age. Just speaking for myself, I know there's a lot of nine-year-olds that I would love to guide, but speaking for myself, that was definitely good for him.
Katie
Probably a lot more than you don't.
John Kelly
Yeah, sure. Absolutely. So yeah, there wasn't really much of a fishing aspect at the time for me, but my joy, my passion for fly fishing would definitely come later and it came seven years later, seven years after that trip. I was 16 and I'd spent at this point, I was a sophomore in high school and I'd spent the last three or four years gradually getting more into fishing in general. I started with bow fishing, interestingly enough. I like to say that I progressed from the most carnal to the most pure of forms of fishing. I started with bow fishing.
Katie
Was that because you were a hunter or was that just a separate interest?
John Kelly
That's such a funny question. Before I answer that, I'll have to say that the bow fishing would take place within the city limits.
Katie
Okay.
John Kelly
I would find little creeks running through Dallas that had carp in them and that's where I do my bow fishing. And there's a parallel there because you asked if I was a hunter. Now I'm 23 years old and I live in Texas and I've never shot a deer, which if you ask a lot of people, that means I'm not a hunter. I have never really had the opportunities to hunt like I have to fish. But growing up, I mean, my friends and I at a young age, we started running through the alleys with blow guns and pellet guns and doing stuff that neighborhood kids did back then. I don't know if that goes on around as much now, but we would run around and shoot doves and squirrels in the alleys of Dallas. And so that was kind of my exposure to hunting. But the same kind of brand of hunting would take place on those creeks where I would just try to shoot this carp with a bow and arrow. But then it progressed to conventional bass fishing, like bait casters, soft plastic, stuff like that. And then I must have been in eighth grade or maybe a freshman in high school. I saw that one movie, The River Runs Through It. And I was just thinking to myself, and I watched it with my family and I told them, I was like, "Well, one day I'm going to try that. I'm pretty sure I'm going to love it." And my opportunity came two years later at a summer camp in Southwest Colorado, where I was for a month. And this particular summer camp, it's not around anymore. it was called Camp Kivu. It had a trout stream running right through it. It was the Los Pinos River. For a month, I got to do that every day. Long story short, I came home and I bought my first fly rod and I haven't touched conventional tackle much since. Bekkah:
Katie
I feel like that's the story with a lot of people. I grew up the same way, bass fishing and stuff. I actually want to get back to fishing for bass and other warm water species because I'm kind of like burnt out on trout, but I don't have any desire to go back to the spin gear for it. I just want to chase them on the fly.
John Kelly
Totally. Totally.
Katie
I feel like that's how a lot of people... I don't know a lot of people who have started fly fishing and then progressed the other direction.
John Kelly
Totally. Yeah, it's like once you do it on the fly, you'll endure fewer fish, maybe not as big of fish consistently for the challenge for sure.
Katie
It's just fun.
John Kelly
And I think I've stuck with it and kept a fly rod in hand. I think for, it's probably not a unique reason, but it's very a meaningful reason for me is that the period of my life where I did pick up a fly rod for the first time, I was going through some pretty, pretty intense personal challenges, family challenges. My parents were going through a divorce and I spent that month up in Colorado, that summer camp, And the time that I could spend fly fishing was definitely a source of relaxation and rest. And yeah, I think it really, it's almost like a fly rod is almost a token of a period of my life where I was able to escape a path of like a kind of a junction in my life where I picked up a fly rod and did a lot more fishing than the alternate, which I guess statistics would say could have been pretty intense devastating substance abuse or something like that. I think that's where you hear the slogan, "Fly fishing saves lives." I feel that that's part of the importance of it for me.
Katie
Definitely. I feel like I've heard similar stories before where if someone hadn't picked up something that took all their attention, like fly fishing seems to, then they didn't really know where else they would have gone with their life. I feel like once you dive in, there's so much to learn and then all the different versions of fly fishing if you want to take up like Euro-nymphing or spay casting or fly tying or any of those things. You can never run out of things to learn. So it just kind of consumes your entire mindset. So I think fly fishing has probably pulled quite a few people out of bad situations and gotten them back on the right track, even if that right track doesn't have anything do with fly fishing, just having that kind of getaway.
John Kelly
Yeah, absolutely. I would absolutely echo exactly what you just said. It's the diversity of experiences and techniques and fish and destinations that keeps it so interesting. It feels like an infinite journey that even if you had all the resources in the world, you could never see the ends of the earth and fly fish, all the waters.
Katie
So kind of coming up to today then, so you and I knew each other through guiding obviously, but what kind of hooked us up for this particular conversation was your website. Is that reflectionsonthefly.com?
John Kelly
That's it, yeah.
Katie
Okay, so I kind of want to hear, considering like what you've been through and what your goals are going forward, kind of like what is your goal for this website and where do you plan on taking it? I know that you want to talk about some things in regards to what role fly fishing plays in today's society, especially considering the depth of the activity in comparison to the shallowness of today's online world, and balancing that with wanting to connect people but being stuck in an online environment to do do that. I just want to hear all your thoughts on all of that. You can take it and run with it wherever you want.
John Kelly
Yeah, sheesh. Going off of what you said, the contrast between the depths of the experience in fly fishing and the shallowness of the online world, it's funny because those are two completely different worlds. Fly fishing for a very long time has been an excuse to get outside, be in the sun, be in beautiful places and pursue beautiful fish. And that's a separate world in its own in a lot of ways and And that is very pure, I believe. And there's no doubt that, I mean, you could even, you could hear the same comments from people who aren't even really involved in the fly fishing industry that just like, wow, like you're really interesting that there's so much fly fishing content, you know, on social media. So commentary aside, it's definitely a fact that those two worlds are colliding. And good or bad, it's happening. And it's a very interesting thing because when something like that happens, when two completely different worlds collide, fly fishing in the online world, it's going to be interesting to see what happens to the culture of fly fishing. It'd be interesting to even comment today on how that might have changed for better or for worse because it's definitely been for better in a lot of ways and could potentially be for worse in other ways.
Katie
I agree. I feel like you can kind of see both of those. You could make the argument that it's opened up the opportunity to start fly fishing for a lot of people, especially with online tutorials and things. It's not the easiest hobby to pick up, but I feel like with today's online world, especially with things like YouTube, anyone can grab a fly rod and be casting proficiently within a couple hours. At the same time, you've got the egotistical comparative world of who can catch the biggest fish and potentially doing shady activities to get said fish and having popular locations blown up. It's definitely it's got pros and cons, but I agree. It's just kind of figuring out how that balance is gonna actually play out
John Kelly
Yeah, and that's exactly right. You know, I don't have like a super strong stance like for against it. I've accepted that it's happening Now my responsibility is to just walk that line and try to Understand that there's opportunities for good with it. Like I'm definitely indebted to People who have posted things online. I've learned a lot through it and I've been inspired through it as well Regardless of the platform and it's it's definitely a developing conversation. It's hard to to take a definite stance on it now But I would say that my efforts in making this website Definitely the big part of that is in order to present the sport of fly fishing in a way that feels right to me personally. And that doesn't mean that it's more right than the way other people wanna do it. But I think that it's almost like a exercise for myself as much as it may be for other people to enjoy it. It's just that I wanna have a space where like the love for this sport can be reflected.
Katie
No, I think that's awesome, doing it the way that you think it should be done. And you can be in control of that.
John Kelly
Right. I just don't think that we can expect to really understand the meaningfulness of fly fishing just by swiping our thumb across the screen. And I think that's a pretty idealistic goal for me, is that people would consume content that doesn't involve wiping a thumb across the screen. Obviously my own website has a mobile version, but I just think there is an importance in going backwards in time and seeing history and not just seeing what was posted yesterday, but maybe like the books that were written, you know, decades ago, the classics, and in growing through that, because there's just, it would just be a shame if the legacy of the sport were lost in a flashy digital age.
Katie
I agree 100%. It's also hard considering the fact that the majority of what you see on, I mean, I think we're mostly talking about Instagram here.
John Kelly
Yeah.
Katie
If we're talking about like lots of swiping and it's, the problem is that despite the fact that most of the people on there probably do have a deeper connection to fly fishing, it's hard for that to come through when you've got a picture and then a caption that shows a couple lines and then gets cut off. And the majority of those pictures are going to be a fish that someone caught, which, you know, of course, if you catch a fish, you're excited and you want to take a picture, but it's hard to then convey how much it meant to you and all the preparation that went into it and things like that, especially in a way that's going to matter to a stranger who is just looking for a couple minutes of looking at big fish in the meantime. Are you planning on approaching that with writing or photography or a combination of both? What's your goal and how do you plan to achieve that on your site?
John Kelly
With my website, it will definitely involve writing and photography as it already does. I've been using 35 millimeter film and I enjoy that because, like I said earlier, I think there's an importance in going back in time and understanding the rich heritage of our sport and I think that doing that with photography has helped me appreciate photography more. The process of shooting with film means that you take a photo and you don't look at a screen on the back of your camera and see the way it turned out. you've got to wait for it to get developed and sent to you. And that's not to say that there's anything wrong with digital photography.
Katie
That sounds pretty cool, kind of combining-- I don't want to say ancient, but kind of the old heritage of both of those things and using them to connect with each other. Would you say that using the film kind of gets you to slow down a little bit? Because that's one thing I've noticed As someone else who runs a site, I want to get a good amount of photos when I go out so I can use them. But I sometimes find that I don't like how much I'm focusing on trying to get as many photos as possible versus kind of slowing down and appreciating each one. And I know since you can't look at the photo and delete it and retake it, you probably need to kind of slow down and make sure you get it right the first time, which I'm sure once you're kind of in that mindset, you're probably a little bit more slowed down throughout the rest of the day as well. Is
John Kelly
that a good assumption? Yes, absolutely. It's like a pace setter for the experience. And it's definitely like an item that gets brought along on trips that really brings a nostalgic sense to the fly fishing experience, which I think that's part of the importance of, and really the blessing that starting to shoot on film And for me, is that in using it, I'm experiencing photography in a way that is considered very often as the original art form of photography, using film. And a lot of people think that things have been lost in the age of digital photography. That's not to say that it's bad or something, but I really harp on the positives of film rather than juxtapose it to any negatives of digital photography. But all that aside, I think it does absolutely help me embrace just the nostalgia of fly fishing and that there are people who've come before me and that I'm not the hero of this world, this fly fishing industry or something grandiose. It's humbling and I think that's important.
Katie
So were you into, I don't know if the word's traditional, but kind of like classic photography before fly fishing or was that something that you decided you wanted to do kind of as a partner with fly fishing?
John Kelly
Dang, you know, it's interesting. I think I've kind of had a knack for it. I haven't really had much, no pun intended, exposure to photography before being into fly fishing, but I wouldn't say that had I never been into fly fishing that I wouldn't pick up photography. I think that they're reflective of different parts of who I am as a person. I like to create, I appreciate nature and that is related to fly fishing, but it didn't stem from fly fishing necessarily.
Katie
All right, so you're working on this website with the goal of kind of getting people in touch with the past and basically the meaning of why they're doing what they're doing, specifically fly fishing, but it also sounds like you could be kind of inspiring some people to maybe do some outdoor photography or other, just kind of getting back to the roots of like what they're doing in a particular fly fishing. So if you just want to share with people like where they can find you, kind of what you have going on on your website and where you plan to take it.
John Kelly
Yeah, sure. So the reflectionsonthefly.com website, and the title, I think it kind of summarizes the purpose in a lot of ways, because when I think about like a reflection, it's just like taking what's in a moment and like extracting meaning from it. And that's just, it's kind of like a state of mind that when I tend to look for the deeper meaning in my experiences, I enjoy fishing more. I enjoy time with others more. When I can relate it to the human experience as a whole or the wider picture of life itself, I think it really helps me enjoy it more. And so the stories and the photos that I'll be posting on that website definitely aim to achieve that goal just by taking adventures and setting them in the context of life and life's challenges. And I'm really excited about that. And I hope to achieve that with my website. I certainly know that it will evolve. I'm more just excited that it's begun. And that--
Katie
That's the hardest part.
John Kelly
Yeah, exactly. And since I have it, I'm just excited that it'll be a place that wherever life takes me. And I feel like that's such a theme of our conversation is that, you know, Guided Three Summers, I've got my first season in Alaska coming up. I don't know what awaits for me there. Don't know what awaits me after I graduate. I don't know what each month of the year is gonna look like for John Kelly going forward. But I'm excited that I'll have the opportunity to hopefully inspire people. And in this day and age, regardless of the industry, people can get by being really good at what they do, but being a jerk. And I've had to confront that reality in myself. And I've had to realize the importance of formation today, just personal formation, becoming a better person. And I don't say that because I think I'm some altruistic saint. I have a lot of flaws. And because of that, I recognize the importance of transformative experiences, like getting out in the back country and being away from technology and all that. And I know that you cherish that a lot, too. And so I hope that this website is a catalyst for my own formation and growth, and that as people get to hear about and see my experiences, that they'll be able to grow as well. Then beyond that, I don't know where it'll take me, but I think that that's been a primary purpose within all of it, is just to grow and love for other people.
Katie
I think that's definitely the best way to go about it. I'm looking forward to seeing where you take it. I'll keep checking in on it every couple of weeks. Hopefully, some other people will follow along too because I feel like you've got some good things coming up in store for you.
John Kelly
I'm excited to see where it takes you. I appreciate it.
Katie
All right, that'll do it for episode number four. As always, if you liked what you heard, go ahead and go over to the Wild Initiative podcast. You can find my episodes there every Thursday, and if you subscribe, you'll get all of those plus all of Sam's other shows throughout the week. You can also find my episodes over on fishuntamed.com in addition to weekly backcountry fly fishing articles each Sunday. You can find me on Instagram @fishuntamed or on GoWild under my name Katie Burgert. And until next time, take care.
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