Ep 51: Fishing for Food, with Mark Norquist
Mark Norquist is the Founder of Modern Carnivore, an educational website and community devoted to bringing people closer to their wild foods. Mark is a generalist outdoorsman who loves to catch fish, hunt game, and forage for interesting foods in the woods. Growing up in Minnesota he had opportunities in every season to get outside with a different activity. His passion nowadays is to get other people outdoors by using storytelling and education as part of the Modern Carnivore platform. In this episode, we cover connection to food, why keeping fish can be a great thing, tips for keeping and cooking fish, and one of Mark’s favorite wintertime activities: darkhouse spearing.
Website: www.modcarn.com
Instagram: @modcarn
Twitter: @modcarn
Youtube: youtube.com/moderncarnivore
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 51 with Mark Norquist on fishing for your food. I usually just start by getting a little bit of background. Where did you get your start in hunting or fishing, the outdoors in general? What drew you to the outdoors?
Mark
Yeah, so I grew up with it. I didn't come to it late. I was sort of indoctrinated from a young age by my father. I have two brothers, one older, one younger. It was just our lifestyle. I grew up in North central Minnesota in the heart of the lakes area, which is a very big fishing culture and hunting culture. And so it was just, it was just part of, of life and what you did back when I grew up. And so, you know, what drew me to it was just the imperative of you're coming along. And then I think over time, it grew into real passion and love for it and it becomes part of your identity of who you are.
Katie
Is that how most people end up in that area? I know it sounds like most people are kind of brought up in that culture. Does it seem to be hit or miss who it sticks with and who it doesn't? Or does everyone kind of grow up and get used to that and just kind of fall in line as adults?
Mark
Yeah, no, it's a good question. And I definitely know people who grew up with it, whose family were hunters and/or anglers, and they didn't take to it for whatever reason. And I think generally the reason for it is maybe just there isn't, you know, maybe those situations weren't made that attractive or they weren't that positive of a situation. And then the other big factor, I think, is just that there gets to be other interests. And a lot of the research out there shows that if you don't get kids engaged in the activities by a certain age, that then they become distracted with so many other things these days in the modern culture.
Katie
Yeah, one thing I've heard-- and I don't have any stats to back it up or anything, but it seems logical. And I've heard it in the context of trying to get more children and women involved in outdoors is that, you know, you take, dad goes hunting or fishing and the kids may or may not go along whether, you know, based on whether he wants to take them. But if mom goes hunting or fishing, the whole family is going. Mom doesn't go fishing or hunting alone. And so that's been kind of the push is to get more women involved because that leads to, okay, the whole family is going, we're making a, we're making a trip of this. So again, I don't know if that's, if that's backed up by stats, but it seems to make sense of, you know, wanting to get the whole family into it.
Mark
Yeah, no, I, it, it does that, that reference gets made a lot of times. And you're right. I don't know if there is empirical evidence to support that. And there probably is, it probably does come from a study. Um, and I, and I think it does make sense. And you know, that's where what's great is, is women are the one fastest growing segment within hunting. That's really, to be honest, the only segment that's growing within, within hunting right now. Um, you know, that and, and archery as a method, method of hunting, uh, you know, but there are real challenges definitely with participation. And, uh, you know, what we, what we try to do with the modern carnivore platform is have it be wide open to anyone and everyone. And we try to tell everyone's story with our platform so that people out there who've never been out hunting or fishing can say, Hey, you know, that, that maybe reminds me of me or someone I know. If they're doing it, maybe it's something I can do.
Katie
Well, that's great. I do want to come back to modern carnivore as our next topic. But I was just curious, what did you grow up hunting and fishing for primarily? What's the culture around that area where you grew up?
Mark
Yeah. I always say I'm a generalist. I've got an inch depth on all parts of the outdoors. So, you know, we grow up, it was every season of the year, there was something. So, you know, right now, spring, foraging for mushrooms, heading into early season fishing, fishing all summer on the lakes and the streams. So we'd be catching panfish, sunnies, crappies. we'd be catching bass walleyes, Northern pike. Um, and then we'd be stream fishing too, for trout and then heading into the fall season. You know, we'd start out with grouse and small game and going into waterfall and then, uh, ultimately into, into whitetail hunting. And, uh, as, as sort of the, the primary areas, which would then transition into ice fishing in the winter. And I grew up doing a lot of spear fishing and, and just regular angling through the ice. Um, and then it starts all over in the spring. And, and, you know, one, one of the things that's interesting is we we've been doing a lot with turkey hunting in the last couple of years, and, uh, that's new for me. And younger people who are, who are really have gotten really avid into hunting recently, um, are always amazed by that. They're like, how could you not have been out turkey hunting yet? And I always say, you know, when I grew up, we didn't have turkeys in Minnesota. I mean, it's a wonderful success story, conservation success story of the trap and transplant strategies that have worked well. Where I grew up, fishing was a big part of the spring, and so you were busy already with a lot of those things. But yeah, so very much a generalist in all those areas.
Katie
You highlighted this, I think, accidentally there. But one thing I appreciate about the idea of being a generalist, is that you never get bored. There's not a bored season. And it even extends beyond hunting and fishing. I mean, I identify maybe as like a skier in the winter, a fisherman in the summer, a hunter in the fall. And there's no boring season. I don't have enough time to do everything I want to do. And I feel a little bad for people who focus so much on something that they're like, oh, I love June through August, but I don't really know what to do with my time the rest of the year. And I'm like, I wish I had that problem because I don't have enough time all the things I want to do. And so being a generalist, I think, kind of keeps you busy throughout the year. You don't have a time to sit and twiddle your thumbs.
Mark
No, you don't. And then it becomes really just a part of a lifestyle. And one could make an argument who's a specialist, somebody who's a specialist in, let's say, back country, out west, big game hunting, or fly fishing as a perfect example. My brother, I mean, I consider my, I always say I fly fish. I'm not a fly fisherman because I don't tie my own flies. I will when I'm retired, I think. And I did buy a fly tying kit a few years ago because our daughter, we were at the Midwest Fly Fishing Show, which I don't know if you've ever been to. It's based here in the Twin Cities. It's a great regional fly fishing show. And they do this phenomenal program for kids where they create a passport and the kids go through and they meet with an entomologist. they learn about bugs, then they go and they work on, on casting. Then they're going to go to a fly tying station. And they go through, I think about a dozen different places that they have to get their passport stamped. Uh, and then I forget what they got at the end, but my daughter fell in love with tying flies. And I thought, well, I guess I gotta, I gotta start earlier than I, than I planned, but I love fly fishing. Um, I've done a lot of fly fishing over the years, uh, but I would not call myself like a really avid flash fisherman where I'm only going to be dedicated to that way of pursuit. I spin fish, I do a lot of different things.
Katie
I've kind of come around on that. I grew up spin fishing exclusively and picked up fly fishing later. And there were a couple of years after I started where I was convinced I would never touch a spin rod again. And I think I needed to get that out of my system a little bit. And obviously, I probably do about 90 to 95% of my fishing with a fly rod these days, but I definitely enjoy picking up different methods now and then to just vary it up. And sometimes it's not the right technique for the time. I don't know a lot of people who consistently catch walleye on a fly rod. It happens, but it's not the primary means of catching walleye. I guess carp is getting more popular on a fly rod, but there are some species that have traditionally not been caught on a fly rod, and it's not always the best technique. I'm kind of coming back around on the, I wanna get back into being a little bit more of a generalist in that sense.
Mark
Yeah, no, it's, you know, and there's a lot of reasons, you know, you can say that. And I think, you know, to each their own, to people who wanna be purists and wouldn't think about doing anything else, wonderful. That's great for you. You know, there's a lot of reasons why you may try different, you may use different techniques, like you said, walleye, or let's say, you know, carp are getting more popular, but, you know, whitefish up here, very deep water fish. You'd be hard pressed to find a way to go after them with a fly, I think. And I'm sure somebody is gonna write in and tell you I'm wrong on saying that because they catch whitefish all the time on the fly.
Katie
Right, actually.
Mark
But then you have other reasons. Like, so years ago, my gosh, this was a lot of years ago, my brother and I did a two week fishing trip to Alaska. And we just floated a river for over a week. And we started in the upper reaches. We were catching our Arctic grayling and we're getting into rainbows in the mid section. And finally we were getting into Kings down in the lower. And I didn't have enough money to buy an eight or a 10 weight rod. So I was fly fishing for the grayling. I was fly fishing for, for the rainbows. But once we got into the Kings, I had to switch over to spin, spin gear. And I was throwing out spoons just because I didn't have the money at the time to buy a really nice 10 weight. So, um, you know, so for a lot of different reasons and I didn't, I didn't have any problem with that.
Katie
Yeah, that's, that's awesome. My, uh, my goal for this summer is I I've never caught a catfish and I really, really want to catch a catfish. So I'm thinking I'm gonna go down to the pond, stick a rod and a rod holder with a bell on the end and then go fly fish for panfish while I wait for the bell. Uh, so I got my extra rod stamp this year in hopes of maybe catching a catfish while also getting to catch panfish on the fly rod, uh, as my combo.
Mark
You could always try noodling, go South and try noodling.
Katie
You know, that's the one technique that I don't think I'll ever do. I'm all for trying new things.
Mark
I'm with you. It's not really something that's on the top of my list either.
Katie
Yeah, yeah, sticking my hand in murky, muddy holes isn't my idea of a great time. Well, okay, so let's move on and tell me a little bit about modern carnivore as a whole. Like if you were giving an elevator pitch to somebody about what it is, maybe someone who's never heard of it or isn't familiar with hunting and fishing and how you guys approach it.
Mark
Sure. So we focus on adults, not kids. We try to draw people into the idea of having a lifestyle where you hunt and fish and forage by having conversations that start out focused on food and really saying, "Hey, have you ever tried wild game?" and either people say no, or they've probably had a bad experience because maybe Uncle Larry made venison and overcooked it and it was really tough and chewy. And so a lot of people have those types of reactions, but we found, I like to say that we did a research study. We found that 99% of the people in our target market eat. And so we figured that that was a good way to approach it. But some people look at it in terms of, 'cause we do, like we've got Chef Lucas Leaf, we have Jamie Carlson on the platform doing these great recipes. And so some people would look at it and say, okay, you're trying to get foodies interested in hunting and fishing. And it's like, yeah, I mean, that's a certain, I think there's a certain draw for someone who would consider themselves a foodie, but it's not just that. It truly is. Anybody who likes eating good food is up for learning about new adventures in the outdoors. And there could be a lot of reasons you may wanna come to it. Again, you wanna try something new. You want to be more connected to nature. And for a lot of people it is, with our name it's, hey, if I'm gonna eat meat, I wanna be more directly involved with what's going on. And so that I know that it's being done in the right way. And so that's what's fun. So we do everything from, you know, we've got a couple podcasts, we have a blog, we do a lot of recipes, we do storytelling, we do a lot of video production to do storytelling, and then we do events. So we just did a turkey camp two weeks ago up in North Central Minnesota through a partnership with the SCI Foundation. And it was to introduce people to turkey hunting. So they go through a long couple, several week introduction learning course online through our learning portal, and then we bring them together. And so we had two women from Texas, we had a woman from New York from Long Island come on their first hunt and come to northern Minnesota for the first time. And it's no matter how much you do that, you never get tired of seeing the reactions of people when they're part of it. Maybe they maybe they got their first bird, they got the first animal, or fish, or maybe they just were part of the group or somebody else that they got to know, hit that milestone. Just the excitement and the joy in the process is so fun to see.
Katie
So how is your learning center set up? Is it like a masterclass style program or is it YouTube based? What's the learning center like?
Mark
Yeah, really good question. So it is very much masterclass style. So it's an online learning portal called Hunting Camp Live. So if anybody wants to check it out, it's huntingcamp.live. And it's all video-based learning modules. So as an example, right now, we've got two signature courses out there. One is Learn to Hunt Upland Birds, and the other is Learn to Hunt Turkeys. And so like Learn to Hunt Upland Birds is 72 individual video-based lessons within six chapters. And it's everything from identification of upland birds and understanding five different species to navigation and safety out in the wilds, to how to cook, to shot shells, to shotguns, understanding shotguns. And very much from the standpoint of using language and having an approach for the average person that never grew up with guns, that doesn't know the first thing about hunting, and they need to understand the basics. Because there are a lot of barriers. And so that's what we're trying to do, break down all those barriers to entry.
Katie
Are there any plans for more of those courses covering different topics?
Mark
Yep. We've got a lot in the mix.
Katie
Are you allowed to spill the beans at all or is this top secret?
Mark
Well, not yet. Hopefully this fall, we will have one or two new courses. And then 2022 should be a very big year with a lot of different projects going on that we have plan.
Katie
Are these all hunting or are there any fishing ones in the works?
Mark
We have others within foraging and with fishing, absolutely. What's funny is over the years, I started this platform about 10 years ago and it's grown really slow. You and I were talking about this a little bit earlier. I've been doing it for a lot of years. It's been my passion. It's been sort of a side project, but it's progressively been moving more forefront in terms of my professional life and what I'm doing. And I originally had this idea that it was the business model was to get people interested and connected to sustainably sourced meat at their grocers. So, I know people who have pig farms and are raising cattle and things like that, but they didn't necessarily have avenues. It was like, well, let's connect up consumers with that. And then let's progressively move them down the pathway to becoming an outdoors person. So let's then transition into foraging light, then maybe panfish, going after panfish, then into bigger fish, then ultimately into small game hunting, progressively into large ungulates or something like that. So that was the very linear model. And what I found over time was, there kept being this response to me of, "Well, what about hunting? And I wanna learn about hunting." And what I found is that there was a really interesting novelty and allure of hunting that didn't exist in the other areas, which is, you know, I don't know a whole lot about this hunting thing, and it's pretty black and white. You're gonna take the animal, you know, like as compared to, let's say, you know, fly fishing. to take a catch and release only fly fishing culture, the eating component isn't an element of that. It is purely the sport of going out after the chase. And hunting is very black and white of people are saying, okay, this animal is gonna die and therefore I need to eat it. And if I'm gonna eat it, I wanna do it right. And if I'm gonna do it right, I wanna learn how to cook it really well. So it becomes a much more complex experience. pretty rich. And so with that, ended up moving hunting more to the forefront. And so right now, we have hunting camp live. But yes, absolutely, there will be a fishing camp live, a foraging camp live, and others in the future.
Katie
I'm sure that I'm going to alienate a portion of my listenership by saying this, and I don't mean it in a derogatory way at all. But I think the catch and release only culture and not people who casually say like I just don't, you know, I don't really like the taste of fish so I release what I catch. But the people who are very vehemently against keeping fish in any situation, catch and release is the only responsible thing to do. I think there's something missing there. And most of the fish I catch I release. I mean, and there's species I will not keep. Our native cutthroats here, even if it's legal to keep, I won't keep them. But I think that there is a little bit of something missing from the activity if you never keep anything you catch. Because there's just something that, there's like a line you cross where, like you said, you do take a life and you do have to think about that. And I know a lot of people just like toss their fish on the onshore, but I deliberately kill each fish I catch because I don't like watching them suffer. And I think that that process brings me more in depth with the activities even if I am not keeping fish on any given day, just knowing that I do occasionally do that and I will occasionally do that, I think brings me deeper into the into the sport. And I'm not sure what your thoughts on that are, but I think it would be a positive thing for people who have never kept a fish or hunted, but you know most of my listeners are fishermen and maybe don't hunt at all. I think it would be a positive experience for a lot of them to occasionally keep a fish, even if it's just like a stalker rainbow that you really have to feel as bad about. I think the act of keeping a fish now and then would bring people a little bit closer to the sport.
Mark
No, I agree. I think we have a very similar philosophy on that. And again, to each their own. And I have a lot of close friends and relatives that are much more catch and release, but we'll still keep one or two generally here or there. And I do think that it's an aspect of killing that animal and eating it or that fish or that bird enriches the full experience and makes it that much deeper and more meaningful. And I look at it also from a conservation perspective, which is an ethic that any catch and release angler would generally have. And that is that, you know, if you are going to go out and hunt fish or forage, and you're going to then take life of that living being or you're going to take that forage for that item, and you're going to literally ingest that item into your body. You're going to be thinking about that environment it's living in, and you're going to be thinking about, is that water clean? Are we keeping these forests healthy? are the grasslands that are gone and going away very rapidly? Are we doing the right things to make sure we have healthy environments? And so that's something that I believe you don't get if you're not partaking in the actual killing and eating of the quarry. And again, not to piss too many people off here, but yeah, I think if you're doing purely catch and release and you're a really avid angler, there's still a mortality rate there. It's just unseen. And so ignorance is bliss, but there's a mortality rate there. And so the question, it's sort of the age-old question of which is better, catching and killing three fish or catching and releasing 30? I don't know.
Katie
Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends on how responsible you are with handling and things like that. But I've definitely seen some pictures of fish online that are labeled as like, "Oh, let them go, let them grow." And I'm like, "That would have been better on the plate because it's dead anyway."
Mark
Right, right, exactly.
Katie
Based on the photo I'm seeing right now. So yeah, I mean, and I never really thought of it that way, but I agree with what you said about kind of being a little bit more cognizant of the environment it's in. Because there are a lot of fish around here that I don't keep because of where I caught You know, we've got mines around here and I'm not going to really keep much down in the Denver metro area. I've thought of it that way, and I don't want to eat this because of where I caught it, but I never really thought about the fact that that does kind of translate to, I might care a little bit more about being an advocate for cleaning up our local waterways or our rivers to prevent that, you know, mine drainage or whatever other pollution is getting into the waterway?
Mark
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I think it's, I think it just becomes very, very personal when that's, that is the case. And, and, you know, there have been, there have been some stories in the media as of late through big media outlets talking about should we really be recruiting people into hunting and angling or do we have enough out there? And one of the, one of the stories was, was the argument was we should be focusing on making people better conservationists rather than, rather than hunters. And, and I don't think it's an either or I think it's a both. And I think if somebody doesn't want to hunt, that's fine. Let's make them conservation. If we can get somebody to learn about and appreciate hunting and maybe even become a hunter. You look at DU, look at TU, look at all of the critter clubs across the country, Pheasants Forever and Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, etc. And the amount of resource that goes into conservation because of the people who truly appreciate the necessity of healthy forests, waters and wildlife. I think those are some of the best conservationists out there. We should do what we can to bring more people into the fold to have that appreciation.
Katie
Yeah. I know it's not required that you are an avid fisherman with a current fishing license to join Trout Unlimited or an avid hunter with a current duck stamp to go be a member of Ducks Unlimited, but that happens to be most of the population of those organizations. That's not required to join, and I would welcome anybody who says, "I don't fish, but I want to help trout." I'd be like, "Sure, come to the Trout Unlimited meeting." But the fact is that people need a motivation to stand up for something, and people who are using that resource have a lot more motivation than someone who doesn't, to actually get out and do something.
Mark
Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, even along the lines of, again, you don't have to, and a lot of organizations, I think Audubon in recent years has done some pushes around people buying duck stamp. I might be wrong in that, but I know some groups have, and I believe Audubon was one, have encouraged people if they're burgers or if they're conservationists, go buy a duck stamp. It's not just for duck hunters. Money goes to the right thing. But we've done in the last few years, have done butchering clinics. I've done a bunch of them in my garage of where I just invite people over and I get a deer in the fall and I say, "Hey, come on over, this deer is hanging and we're going to butcher it and you can watch the whole process." And not only we had experienced hunters and brand new hunters, we've had friends or relatives of new hunters who say, "You know what? I wanna just see the process and understand it. I'm not gonna ever become a hunter." they're fascinated by it. And they just sit there and they take it all in and they want to be part of the process and understand it, even though they know they'll personally never do it. And I have so much respect for that. I think that is just wonderful. And I'd take that all day long in terms of people coming in and saying, you don't have to take part. If you want to understand it, that's all I care about. And I appreciate your interest in that.
Katie
Absolutely. Do you get a lot Modern Carnivore, I know most of the people who are interacting with you are probably interested in learning from you or reading your website or listening to your podcast, but I can't imagine that being in the realm that you're in, that you don't get some pushback from people about how it's not responsible to encourage people to eat more meat or go kill animals for fun or rip fish out of the water for fun or whatever they think your motivation is. Have you gotten much pushback from people? And if so, what are the arguments that they come with?
Mark
You know, I have to say I've gotten next to zero pushback.
Katie
Oh, well, that's great to hear.
Mark
And I see specifically within Modern Carnivore. And mostly from the standpoint of, are you familiar with Clubhouse, this new social media platform?
Katie
I've heard of it, but I couldn't tell you anything about it.
Mark
Yeah, so I got hooked into it a few months ago and I think it's got real potential to be a wonderful platform for discussions on difficult, challenging topics. And so I've got a modern carnivore club in Clubhouse and we've had conversations and I've been a guest in other clubs in Clubhouse. People have asked me to come in to talk about the things that we do. And I've had vegans and vegetarians in there that challenge will challenge certain issues and things like that, but it's been really good, respectful discussions. It's not just throwing barbs out there and saying, how could you do that? And, you know, sort of playing up to, to these memes or caricatures of obviously you're this slob hunter that's, that's just out there for, for blood sport. And you enjoy the, you know, the killing of animals. It's an understanding. I think anybody who listens to the stories of people who come through programs in modern carnivore or anybody in the community, they'll quickly realize that this is from a position of, again, food. I want to go get my own food and I want to be connected to it and I want to do it responsibly. And there's a authenticity And I think in this era where a lot of younger people are clamoring for transparency in everything, there needs to be transparency. There's nothing more transparent about where your food comes from than going and getting it yourself. And I think people appreciate that. And, you know, I've got a, there's a quote out on our blog from an email I got from a vegetarian who said, "I'm a vegetarian and I watched your film, "Awaken the Hunter Within." And I just wanna say, great job. I really thought it was well done. And this is about three people going out and learning to hunt for the first time. And so I think when you approach it in the right way, I think it's not combative. Like as an example, a lot of hunting groups or individuals will use the term, the antis are coming. You know, it's, oh, they're anti-hunting, they're anti-guns. And I just, I don't wade into any of those conversations. If somebody says that, I literally will just get up and walk out because that conversation is going nowhere really quick. And so I prefer to have an open dialogue and have conversations with vegans, vegetarians, animal rights activists who don't believe it's right. Wonderful, let's have a conversation about it. And I'll tell you my position. You tell me yours and at the end, we'll probably agree to disagree on things, but hopefully we can have a level of respect.
Katie
Right, there's a big difference between a discussion that involves questions like, how do you approach this? or why do you think like this about this issue or that issue and why do you kill for fun? Those are two different approaches. I also think there's a difference between the people who, let's use a vegetarian for example, I don't eat meat because of whatever reasons I have, but I can appreciate where you're coming from because of whatever reasons you have. Or people who maybe eat meat but aren't into hunting because they don't like that you kill animals, but they are fine eating meat or eating fish, but they don't like the idea of hunting or fishing. There's different groups and I feel like it's really hard to look at a whole group with a label like vegan or vegetarian or just non-hunter or non-angler. Those groups encompass such a wide variety of people and I think too often they're considered to be one homogenous entity, as though you hear that and you automatically dismiss instead of thinking, you know, maybe there's a vegetarian who just doesn't really like meat, but they're not at all anti-eating meat. They're just like, "I don't really like meat." You know, I'm sure there's many, many people out there who fit that category who incorrectly get labeled as some sort of anti, like you said. So I think it's good to remember that there's such a wide variety of people in these groups that it's best to approach them, you know, as though you're meeting someone for the first time. Like, what would you say to someone you've never met before? It's so easy online to assume that it's just a username, but there's a person there and they probably have their own meaningful reasons for why they do and say what they do and say.
Mark
Right. No, absolutely. That is what's interesting about this Clubhouse platform too, is it's all audio. It's like a live podcast is what it is. Everybody has their profile there and you're literally talking to each other. social media that actually is social to a certain component. And I think it forces people to be more respectful generally, because you're talking to a real person. You're not just posting something out there into the ethernet.
Katie
Right. I gotcha. I feel like social media is so much about, "I'm going to post this five-sentence long rant and it's going to be a gotcha. And the person's going to have an epiphany and they're going to say, 'Oh, now I see the way because of this random comment in an Instagram thread or something like that. I don't know why people still think that's going to work, but it seems to still be rampant.
Mark
Right, right.
Katie
Well, I'm glad to hear that for the most part it's been a pretty positive reception. Going a little bit deeper into the food aspect, because I'd like to get into maybe some tips and recipes and things here if you've got some, but do you just want to talk a little bit about your approach to the idea of being connected to your food? I guess the difference in connection between something that you've caught or killed versus something that you go to the store and buy. Because it's so easy to go buy a pound of ground beef or tilapia fillets or salmon fillets, whether they're wild caught or not. There's just a difference there when you go to the meat counter and pick it up versus something you've collected yourself. I just want to hear your thoughts on that.
Mark
Yeah. I mean, it's a really good question. I mean, I think it comes down to it's when I see people come through and for me personally, you know, when you go out and do it yourself, it's transformational versus going in the grocery store, it's transactional. You know, when you take a deer, probably, you know, big game, what's wonderful about big game, although it exists with any game that you are field seeing, butchering and cleaning and ultimately, you know, either putting on the table right away or putting in the freezer. But the pro there's something about the process of butchering a deer and the amount of effort that goes into it. And when you package up in those white wrappers and you write on the label, you know, backstrap a big buck, uh, up on the back 40 and with the date. And then three months later, you pull it out when people are over and you can tell us around that, Oh gosh, this buck is the last day of the season, I was freezing. I thought I was done for the year and I wasn't going to be able to fill the freezer. And this buck came sneaking through in the far distance and you know, whatever the story is like that. I think it just, it creates an appreciation because of how much effort that goes into it. And it's the type of thing it's, it's where, you know, another one of the challenges we have, but I think it is also the draw of, of these, of these activities to people in this day and age, which is, you know, you know, as, as, as an angler, it's, it, um, this isn't instant gratification. This is about as far from instant gratification as you can get. And you know, like fly fishing is what I love about it is it teaches me patience every time I go out when I'm swinging my rod and I'm on my back cast, I'm hooking up with the tree.
Katie
Right.
Mark
And I'm like, "Oh, there I go again. I can't break the rod in two. I need to just go back and spend the next 10 minutes carefully getting that tippet unwound." And those lessons, I think people, as we get more and more disconnected and more and more instant gratification, I'm hopeful that our tendency will be to be drawn towards those longer games of something that is truly, richly rewarding at a deep level, that teaches you patience, that teaches you appreciation and gratitude for things like your food. I mean, throughout history of humanity, food was the center of our daily routine, going out and getting it, bringing it home, sharing it with the community, either immediate family or your tribe or, or your clan. And just very, very late in the last few years, the last few decades, maybe the last couple generations, we've gotten away from that. And we've gotten to this industrialized level of it meat or food is something that comes in a box or comes under saran wrap on a on a styrofoam tray. And it's a transaction. And it's, and it's merely fuel to move you on to stage of your day. And that's one of the things that I think culturally we really need have, I've always felt we needed to think about more in North America and in the US in particular. I lived abroad for a few years, a number of years ago, and really got to appreciate, got to a point of really appreciating the ritual of a meal and really sitting down and taking time to enjoy it with people and have a meal as the reason you live rather than just fuel to get on to the next thing. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that's, does that sort of answer or did I go way off topic?
Katie
[LAUGHTER] No, I bet this kind of goes back to what we talked about earlier with just in fishing specifically, how keeping fish occasionally, I feel it can enhance the whole experience, even on days that you're not planning to keep anything, or on a day that you are keeping fish, but you obviously can't keep all fish, either for bag limits or size restrictions or things like that. Because we were in Wyoming recently, and we kept a couple of fish. and they had size restrictions, 20 inches or more. And we thought that was going to be pretty restrictive, but it turned out that we were catching a lot of really big fish. But because of that, every fish that we caught, we kind of inspected it a little bit more closely than we would if we were just going out catch and release and knowing that from the start. Because every fish you bring in, now you're looking at it and thinking, would this be a good fish to keep? Is it legal? If it is legal, is this a good time to keep a fish? we're going to keep fishing for a while. I don't know if I want this sitting out. And so because of that, it turned into less of a, like, get the fish, throw it back in. You know, a lot of times and I obviously support getting fish back in the water quickly if you're going to release them. But sometimes I feel like I will release a fish. And thinking back, I'm like, I didn't really look at that fish. I just kind of got it off the hook and tossed it back. And why am I catching fish if I'm not going to appreciate a fish when I catch it? And I feel like if you have that mindset of you might want to keep it, it slows you down a little bit to the point of actually taking time to appreciate each fish and noticing things about it. How big is it? What does it look like? Because you're assessing whether it's an appropriate fish to keep. That's more fishing than hunting because there's no catch and release hunting. But unfortunately, that might be kind of fun.
Mark
Somebody tried to do it a few years ago.
Katie
Uh-oh.
Mark
Won't go there. (both laughing) But yeah, you know, it's, I've never thought about it in that way. That's a really interesting point of taking a catch and release perspective on it and versus keeping efficient in the inspection level. You know, on the flip side, you know, with the hunting component, I've often talked about, and I think it applies to fishing and hunting. And that is, you know, if you're camping, you're canoeing, you're hiking, you're climbing, you're often observing the beauty of the natural setting you're in. But when you're hunting or fishing, you're actually participating as an apex predator animal in that wild space. And as a result, you become so much more informed. You're looking for the science on the ground, on the trees. Has something come by here? Was it recent? Is it old? If you catch a fish, is it a healthy fish? Is it the right size to keep legally? I think all of those components, they do enrich the experience and transition it into a much deeper experience than just observing the beauty on a superficial level.
Katie
I agree. I agree with your thoughts on being a participant versus being more of a passive observer. And no shade toward any of those other activities, too. I love participating in hiking and skiing and climbing and all these things. But there is something different when you are participating with the beings that are normally in that environment versus climbing. There's not a lot of animals that would do that, I guess. So you're kind of doing something that's uniquely human. And that's amazing and awesome. But there's also something fun about kind of giving up being a human for a little bit. and you are human in the sense that you're an apex predator, and that is what a human is, but you're kind of allowing yourself to meld into the environment in a different way. That kind of says, I want to give up things that are uniquely human and become part of this whole that has existed for thousands and thousands of years. And a lot of these newer things, I feel like are different in a way. And it's nice to kind of have the dichotomy of, I can participate in hiking and observe the beauty of nature, but I can also go out and decide to participate within nature when I want to.
Mark
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I would say, it's not any less human of an activity than our daily routine is. It's just a different facet of it. And I guess I would say it's more of an authentic part of what it's meant to be human for millennium. And just as of late in a very short period of time, again, we've created a lifestyle that we've all gotten very comfortable with. And it is wonderful. I mean, we are so, I mean, my gosh, the comforts we have in this modern world are amazing. And any previous generation couldn't have dreamed of it. And they're great in so many respects, but they also have their limitations. And I think it's good to take those barriers, those buffers from the natural world out of the way periodically and remind ourselves of where we came from and what's important in the natural world.
Katie
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Now, going into maybe some specifics, I don't know what all you came kind of prepared for today, but if someone's looking to maybe transition over to keeping some of what they catch instead of tossing them all back, do you have any tips for crossing that line for the first time? Because I'm sure some people might be a little bit hesitant. You know, I want to start keeping some fish. I'm not really sure how to do that responsibly. I don't want to have to feel bad about what I'm doing, and I want to make something delicious that me and my family can appreciate. Do you have any tips for someone who's looking to make that leap?
Mark
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of factors to consider. I think the ethics of a quick, clean kill are the starting point and trying to do that as most effectively as possible. So with fishing, again, not letting the fish suffer and like you said, just throw it up on the bank and let it die slowly, but I'll generally kill a fish as quickly as possible. And not only is that a good ethic, I believe, but it also is a good way to keep the meat in the best state. And then, you know, after you've got a good kill, you know, making sure you're managing the temperature and the environment that that, that that animals in as effectively as possible, you know, with trout, I'm, I'm gutting them out right away. Um, and washing them out and try to get them on ice as quickly as possible is, is what I'm doing with trout. Um, and just so everybody knows, I don't keep a ton of trout, but the ones that I do keep, um, but, um, you know, and, and basket, it can be an effective way to, you know, where you've got water, fresh water recirculating constantly so that fish is, is, is staying alive and staying healthy. And then, and then again, just managing it by getting it on ice and chilled as quickly as possible. So you're keeping that flesh good and firm, and it's not going to spoil. And then, you know, make if you're, if you're not going to eat it right away, make sure you're effectively storing it. Ideally, I would say you've got a Cryovac air... What's the generic term? I forget the brand of mine now too, but the packing device to pull all the air out. I don't know why I'm blanking.
Katie
Oh, like a vacuum sealer?
Mark
Yeah, vacuum sealer. There you go. It's a simple term. Ideally, or at minimum, different methodologies of a Ziploc bag, getting as much air out or freezing a fish in water. But again, getting it quickly, getting it cold, freezing it effectively, keeping the air away from it, and then consuming it within a reasonable period of time so it doesn't get freeze or burn. And hopefully then doing it with friends or family who you can share the stories and your appreciation and love for this and find some great recipes on a site like Modern Carnivore or somewhere else.
Katie
If only there were a place that people could go. What's your preferred way of dispatching a fish? Or does it depend on the fish and the size? Because I have gone back and forth. I mean, my kinda classic is a bonk on the head. But I find that with certain fish, that goes better than other fish. And I also admittedly am not the best at knowing when a fish has actually died. Because there's a lot of times where I'm convinced it's dead, And then there's some flopping, and I'm not sure if it's a live flopping or if it's muscle twitches. And so I've also tried severing the spinal cord. But on large fish, that's a lot of fish to cut through to get to spinal cord. And I feel like it's not an exact science. So do you have any tips on that? Or what are your preferences?
Mark
Yeah, it varies. Big fish, I'll bonk them on the head If I'm getting a big salmon or something like that up in the back country, I'll get a big rock and just put them out of its misery quick. With smaller panfish, a lot of times, I'm just taking a filet knife and I'm going into the brain and I'll just poke it right in. Good filet knife is a very sharp tip and I'm just gonna go straight into the brain and cut down into the flesh and there's a fleshy part there. And that generally does the job. Now that being said, you know, a lot of people will bleed out their fish too, by cutting, cutting the gills and, and, and swear by that for, for the meat, uh, preserving the meat, um, there is. Oftentimes with fish, there's going to be that muscle twitch movement and it truly is that. Uh, and so that's why you just need to know that going into it, that, that if you have really done a good job, you know, what you think is a good job of, of really, you know, whacking that fish on the head and, or then, you know, cutting it down through the brain, like I'll do, um, that fish is dead and, and those, those nerves are definitely flopping around just like a chicken would just like so many animals do. Um, you know, think of chick running around like a chicken with your head cut off. That's that's exactly, you know,
Katie
Swimming away like a fish with its head cut off.
Mark
There you go. Exactly. And I think you just need to get comfortable with that. Um, and maybe you never get comfortable. I would say, I would say I, whenever a fish does that, and if I'm cleaning a mess of panfish, like if we've got a big mess of crappies, um, that's, that's going to happen a fair amount, to be honest, they're going to be flopping. And I think about it every time it happens and I don't like it in terms of thinking, okay, well, is, is it dead? But it is. Um, and then, you know, it's just, it is, that's the way every fish, yeah, just working through it.
Katie
Yeah, that's kind of the same place I'm in where I logically know that I should expect fish to be flopping even after they're dead, but I still get alarmed every time I see it and I panic and think, "Oh no, I don't want you to suffer. I want you to die." But, you know, there's been points where I just cut the entire head off because I'm like, "I just, you know, I just, I want this to be over." And I really don't like seeing fish suffer, but I really like bringing fish home to eat. And I think that's just something that I guess people have to, reconcile with themselves. But I like to know if anyone else has found anything that has helped with that process because it's still pretty clumsy for me.
Mark
Yeah, I mean, and I think that your concerns over it are really well-founded and I think it might always be that way. And I think just continuing to do your best with it, that's what you do. I don't think that, Outside of, yeah, cutting the whole head off. Yeah, that's pretty foolproof.
Katie
Yeah. I would hope so. Right. As for the different species of fish, what things have you noticed about different species in terms of their edibility? So I know plenty of people eat panfish, lots of people love walleye, trout's up there, but people like all of What specific things have you noticed as differences between the types of fish in terms of their edibility or what they taste like?
Mark
I would generally say for most people, the types of fish, if you're going to be looking to eat freshwater fish, you're generally going to have your white fleshy fish and your salmonids, uh, you know, maybe pinkish, um, and, um, as sort of two primary flavor profiles. And then within the white, you know, more of the white flesh fish, you know, like a Northern pike, a walleye, a crappie, a sunfish, a bass, they are fairly similar. There are, there are differences absolutely in the flavors. There's differences in the texture. differences in the moisture, I think, depending upon the age of the fish, the size of the fish. But they're all very good. Here in Minnesota, where I live, the state fish is the walleye, and it's sort of the big go-to. Our opener was last week. It's a big celebration in the state. The governor does a big event. If you go out to a restaurant, a good restaurant, there's always going to be a walleye option on the menu. And it is a very good fish, but it's pretty bland, to be honest. I take crappie. Crappie is probably one of my favorite fish to catch and to eat. You know, it's called the paper mouth. It's got very thin lips. And so you have to hook them well, and you have to be careful, and they provide a good fight to be really nice. And they're wonderful to eat. Um, and so, I mean, most people are going to be eating, eating white, white flesh fish. They're going to be eating it at a fish fry. So it's going to be fried up. It's going to be battered. Um, you know, I've been experimenting lately with different things with panfish, uh, like butter poaching, uh, which, which has been really fun and just getting more of just that pure fish flavor with, uh, with, with butter, um, and doing, doing different things like that are doing fish soups. I did, uh, I did a white fish, uh, a white fish bisque this last winter that I made with a Northern Pike stock that, uh, I had never made, uh, fish stock out of Northern Pike before. And, uh, it was, it was so good. And the stock was so good. I was, I was amazed that, that, that at this first trial of it, it turned out so well. You would have thought when it was cooking, I had these carcasses of these northern pike in the stock pot boiling for hours and hours or simmering. You would have, if somebody would come in the house, they would have sworn I was cooking shrimp. It smelled like shellfish.
Katie
Oh, okay. That’s good to hear because I hear fish stock and I think something really awful.
Mark
Exactly. And I remember somebody saying once, it smells, it's going smell fishy in your house, but a good fishy, not a bad fishy. And that is exactly what it was. It was a good fishy.
Katie
Okay. Like a seafood boil kind of thing instead of a greasy fish sitting in a pot.
Mark
That's two weeks too old. And then salmon and trout, very different. We've got fresh water steelhead, We've got a lake trout up on Lake Superior here in the Midwest. We've got, um, you know, Browns, Brookies, rainbows in the streams and lakes, some put and take some native, uh, stock, et cetera. Um, and, uh, most people haven't, I would say most people haven't had that. Um, I do love that. Oh my gosh. Like being out, uh, you know, out trout fishing and keeping a couple of fish and, and frying them up whole on the pan over a campfire and eating the whole fish. And I mean like the whole fish, the head, the tail, crispy like a potato chip, et cetera. There's nothing better.
Katie
Now, have you noticed a difference between stalkers and wild trout? Because I feel like I've caught trout that have more of that kind of pinkish orange flesh, and then you catch the trout that have a translucent, almost beige flesh. And I don't keep enough fish where I've really detailed what my favorite trout to eat is or my favorite size. I know people classify like, "Oh, that's a good eater." But what have you noticed in terms of patterns like that, if you have noticed anything?
Mark
Yeah, not a whole lot. Although I will say a few years ago, my younger brother and I, we were doing a fair amount of fishing just on, on these stocked lakes in Northern Minnesota. And they, they, they stock rainbows and, um, we kept several and, um, they were inedible. Uh, so like you said, the, the flesh was, was opaque, uh, and it, and it actually was mushy. There's no firmness to it. And so I I don't know if it was, we were theorizing that it was maybe that year's or the previous year's stocking brewed and it just wasn't ready yet. But yeah, it was really unfortunate because they looked like perfectly good fish, but you literally, it was pretty much inedible.
Katie
That's interesting to hear because I've heard people claim that specific species are mushy. And I have not experienced that, but I've experienced what you said where certain, like individual fish have been mushy. And I wonder if it's more of a, was it stocked recently or has it been in the water? Even if it's a stocked fish, maybe it's a holdover. Maybe it's been in there for a couple of years and has kind of become wild, if you will. And I wonder if that's why people have claimed that certain species are mushy, because maybe, you know, you claim that a rainbow is mushy because you kept a stocker rainbow, or you claim that a brook trout is mushy because you kept a stocker brookie. I wonder if that's where that's coming from because I noticed the same thing, but I haven't noticed a pattern with it really.
Mark
Yeah, no, I don't know at all. Just anecdotal experience. But I wonder also if that is the case. Because I think so often people get these ideas in their head of, "Oh, that's a trash fish," or "That's not a good eating fish," or what have you. And they're based on anecdotes, not on really any true facts, I think. got species like eel pout here in Minnesota that, um, you know, that, that are a freshwater cod that the people for years, when I was a kid, you'd see him just all thrown up on the ice and up on the shore. People would, ah, they'd throw them away. They'd say, we got to get those out of the lake. There's two, there's too many of them. And they're just junk fish and it's a wonderful eating fish. Um, and, and so I think there's a lot, a lot of things out there. I mean, look at, look at the things that people are going after now that they never would have gone after 20 years ago. And so I think people just start to question these ideas that for whatever reason got into culture and maybe were founded on something valid, but a lot of times aren't, I think.
Katie
Yeah, I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure that carp were brought over here as a food fish.
Mark
Yeah, they were from England, I believe.
Katie
And yeah, I don't know anyone today that eats carp, But I have been interested in trying one.
Mark
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Big, big fishing, sport fish in the UK, people going carp fishing.
Katie
Yeah. You need to get quite a few of your friends together to finish off a big carp though, I think. You're not going to eat that yourself.
Mark
Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of rough fish. We have a red horse here in Minnesota, which is a type of sucker. And at our Turkey hunting camp, just a few weeks ago, uh, uh, Greg Kvali, uh, one of our mentors, he was up, uh, fishing sturgeon on the rainy river, uh, up on the Canadian border. And he brought some smoked sturgeon for people to try, which is one of the most amazing fish if you've never had it. Oh my gosh. Um, and then he made a, a, a red horse sucker, uh, dip that. People went nuts over. I mean, more so than any other food, the entire weekend, they just went nuts it. And it's a rough fish, unlimited take. And so, yeah, I mean, again, I think the ideas of what's a good fish, what's a bad fish to eat, I think needs to be called into question anytime somebody says that.
Katie
Now, was that a smoked fish dip or was it prepared a different way? Because I've heard of smoked whitefish. And in this case, I'm talking about mountain whitefish. So what we have out here, which are not like the same deep water ones you have there, I'm actually not that familiar with your whitefish. I'm aware of them, but I don't know much about them. But I know out here people will smoke the mountain whitefish and turn that into, I think, like a cream cheese-based dip. Is it similar to that?
Mark
Yeah. So you can do it exactly. And I, unfortunately, didn't even get to try this dip the other day because by the time I got over to the table, it was all gone. But yeah, I think that's probably what it was. It was probably a smoked fish dip would be my I guess as to how we made it. Yeah. And, and you could do it absolutely, you know, with a smoked whitefish, a lake whitefish or a mountain whitefish. Um, you know, we, we chase, um, uh, white lake whitefish here with, in the winter time through in the dark house, which is, which is a lot of fun. And, um, and yeah, smoking that fish is great, but you can do a lot of other things with that fish too. You can poach it, you can, uh, you can, uh, make fish cakes out of it. You can do a lot of different things.
Katie
Now I'm so glad you brought up the dark house there because I actually ran out of other questions and I was going to have to have this really awkward transition over to dark house spearing, which was the last thing I wanted to ask about, which is completely unrelated to every other thing we've talked about. But since you brought it up, I can follow up with my questions about dark house spearing. And I guess my questions are kind of all over the board because I know next to nothing about it except that I've been seeing it more and more in media in the past like year or two, probably from you. I probably wasn't aware of it at the time, but I remember hearing you on Go Wild's podcast. I've seen meat eater, dark house spearing. It's just kind of come about in the past year or two. So I'd love to just learn a little bit more about it because it's such a foreign way of fishing in my mind. It's not something I was familiar with, but it almost seems like a combination of fishing and hunting, which sounds fantastic to me. So I'd love to just learn more about it if you want to give me kind of an overview of what's involved.
Mark
Sure. You bet. It's, it's not in a very effective way to do, you can't do spear and release. That doesn't work very well. It's because it is more like hunting than, than fishing. And, and yeah, we did, we did this whole series this last year called a hardwater hunters. Uh, and, and sort of going off that theme of, of, yeah, it's, it's more like hunting. It's, it's like, um, it's probably similar to bow hunting out of a stand for white You know, a lot of people will draw parallels between turkey hunting and elk hunting because of the engagement with the animal of the calling. I think there's a similarity between dark house spearing and stand hunting. So what you do is, it's a very niche space. Basically Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota, and New York is sort of like the areas of where it became popular in recent times was the depression when people were needing to be subsistence anglers. And this was a way to get a fairly large amount of protein during the cold winter months. And so, you know, it's based on a lot of traditions that even the origins of it aren't completely understood because there are certain Scandinavian perspectives of the Finns, the Norwegians, Swedes, that have a culture, but also the native Americans of spearing through the ice. And so how it works in modern times is you go out and let's use whitefish as an example. That's one of my favorite quarry to go after. And you do it early ice, which would be December generally. You could do it into January a little bit, but the lake whitefish is a fall spawning fish. And so generally they're running very deep, 50, 60 feet and more and deeper in the lakes, very cold, cold waters. And in the fall, they come up to spawn in the, in the shallows. And so this is when you can spot them in, in a dark house. And so what you do is you, you find a good, a good spot and you cut a hole in the ice, approximately three feet by two feet or whatever size makes sense for you.
Katie
This is kind of a square hole, right? versus like a typical ice fishing hole that's more of just a tiny hole in front of you.
Mark
Exactly. So you could either chisel it out. I've never done that. That would be a long, long process, but that's the way it was originally done. I grew up using a chainsaw as the most common way of doing it. But now I've got a point where what I do generally is I'll use a lithium ion battery powered ice auger and I'll punch six holes evenly spaced. And there's actually meat eater has, has a video out on their YouTube channel. When I took Janis Putelis out, out spear fishing a year ago, this last winter. And uh, and so there's, I think they put a video out of where I explain how to cut, cut a hole, a spearing hole.
Katie
You know, I think I probably saw that and didn't realize it was you because I watched an episode where Janis went out spearing for us for sturgeon. Is that, was that you?
Mark
That was a different, no, that was a different one. That was part of the same trip. So we went over there right after, after we did the whitefish spearing.
Katie
Oh, I'm going to have to look yours up then. Uh, what's what's, do you know what the name of that video is in case people want to see it?
Mark
I think it's called like a stab them and eat them or something like that. Yeah. Not necessarily the title I would have put on it, but I think that's what it is.
Katie
Well, that's not going to draw the vegetarians.
Mark
I think it's the second one in what's called the fur hat ice tour.
Katie
So it's the fur hat ice tour.
Mark
But, um, but yeah, so I'll punch holes with an, with the, an ice auger. It's usually an an eight inch diameter, and then I've got a hand saw that'll cut between those holes. And then you've got, again, this two foot by three foot on average square hole. And then what you're doing, you're generally for the way I do it, I'm doing it in usually seven to nine feet of water ideally. You're then gonna put a shelter over the top of that. And that could be a small little tin shack with made out of plywood and tin and with a shingled roof, or it could be one of these hubs, these modern ice fishing hubs made by companies like Clam and Eskimo, where they pop open, they fold down to a compact shape and then you can pop them out. And you put that over the hole and you're creating a darkened atmosphere in there. And what happens is that hole lights up like a TV screen. And you sit over that hole, you lean over it with a little stool, and then you jig a decoy. And it could be any number of different things. The most typical is a balsa wood-shaped fish decoy. It looks like a lure, it looks like a plug, but there's no hooks on it. And you're gonna swim that around in circles to draw in the fish. There are other things like golf balls and other things that have been used as attractors just to like draw the fish in. And then when the fish comes through the hole, you're waiting for that fish to come through. You're trying to decoy it in. And if you're going after Northern pike, they will oftentimes come in quickly and they'll hit that decoy and they're so fast and it'll scare the heck out of you. Whitefish are generally more just coming through. They're just sailing by. Maybe they'll check out what you're doing. But then you've got a spear in the other hand, generally a five to seven tine spear. And you're going to carefully lower that spear down because that fish will see it if you're not careful. And as I say, right behind the ears, you wanna get back on that neck, right behind the gills and very carefully throw that spear and take that fish.
Katie
Now that sounds like so much fun to me. I haven't gone ice fishing and I'd like to go ice fishing, but this sounds more engaging than ice fishing. bit more active. So this just sounds awesome, getting to watch what's going on below you.
Mark
It is.
Katie
Now, the decoys I remember seeing on the YouTube show I watched were pretty large. It wasn't as small as I would consider a typical lure. Do you know what draws the fish in? Are they just curious? Because I got the impression that the decoy isn't really meant to act as a bait. It sounds like for pike, maybe it does, but it's supposed to be more of like a curiosity thing, right?
Mark
Right. I, I, and who knows exactly what the fish is thinking, but like I said, you know, I've had, had Northern pike come in and they will smack that decoy hard. I've actually got a video. I don't know if it's out on YouTube or not of, of another pike coming in. I just had the cavern running over my shoulder and it comes in and it hits the decoy hard and I, and I pick it up after it. And there are big scratches along it from the teeth. As soon as that pike realizes that this is not a real minnow, they're, they're, they're off generally. But yeah, I mean, the decoys can be anywhere from, you know, two to three inches to my friend, John has got one, it's his favorite one, it's about 12 inches long. And in a big cigar shaped lure, or decoy. And so you know, all varying sizes, like I said, I think I think with it with the the whitefish, it's generally just to create curiosity. But, But yeah, it varies and it is a lot of fun. You should come up sometime and we'll take you out dark house sparing. It's a lot of fun.
Katie
Yeah. I might have to take you up on that. One thing I was wondering though, is it sounds like it's an early season activity because of the whitefish spawning, but how thick does the ice have to be? I would assume with such a large hole that you need some pretty thick ice to sit on it safely around it. Is that like, is the ice thick enough by then?
Mark
Yeah. I mean, so that's obviously a consideration and a very important consideration. And so you want a few inches of ice, um, you know, generally speaking that, you know, it's, it's that fine line and it can go quickly sometimes where, you know, you get that first ice and people, people, some, some anglers want to get out there right away, cause that is really good fishing, but I do not push it. It's just, it's just not worth it to, to get out there too early. But, uh, I mean, generally speaking, you know, you might have anywhere from, you know, four inches to 12 inches of ice. you get later in the season and that's where it becomes difficult to like there. We went spearing later in the season this winter and, oh my gosh, what was it? Maybe 18 inches of ice. And so you're pulling up those blocks of ice with ice tongs. It's a serious power lift.
Katie
Yeah. So when you saw it, does it come off in one big block or are you usually pulling out that hole in chunks?
Mark
Yeah, I'm usually doing it in two chunks. And those are big enough as it is. If you look on my Instagram, you'll see some big chunks that we pulled out this last winter, like I said. But it's generally two pieces. Some people do push it under. We did a podcast back in December. We were spearing up right near the boundary waters. And we were talking about, guests and I were talking about, uh, the methodology of pulling out versus pushing them under. And, and so, you know, some people will just slide the back, they'll push them down underneath the rest of the ice, and then they'll try to slide them back as far as they can. And I think it's, I think you could do that more effectively with early ice. Once you get to be thicker ice, I think that has the potential to cause distraction for the fish. And I don't think it's necessarily a smart thing.
Katie
Yeah. This is also interesting because it just, it seems so, like, I guess what I like about it is there's so many different ways of catching fish. And a couple ways seem to get most of the attention. You know, you talk about like fly fishing, spin fishing, bait casting, you know, those things are kind of like the, I would consider like the big three maybe. But then there's so many, you hear about like catfish jugging down in the South and, and techniques there are around the country that you're just not familiar with. And I'm sure some people wouldn't have any interest in varying, but I just find these things so fascinating, all the ways that people have rallied around trying to get fish out of the water, and whatever way is the most efficient.
Mark
And that's what it is. I think it's a lot of times it's these niche cultural methods that were just grown out of necessity at times when people said, "Hey, you know what? We need to get some food on the table. How can we do that most effectively?" And I think when the rise of sport fishing came about, maybe those methods were looked at as less than sporting or something. But I love it. I agree because I think it's such commentary and interesting things on culture, on history, on so many different levels.
Katie
Right, right. Well, Mark, I'll let you get going, but just to wrap up, do you want to share where people can find you? Modern Carnivore, your podcasts, basically anywhere you want people to locate you.
Mark
Yeah, sure. So, I mean, if people are interested in learning more, they go to modcarn.com, it's short for Modern Carnivore, or they can go to Modern Carnivore. And that's really the center point of where you can go off to. If they want to check out the learning portal for hunting that is huntingcamp.live. Either modcarn.com or huntingcamp.live. Modcarn, you can find the podcast, you can find films we've done like A Way to Hunter Within, find recipes and all kinds of different things.
Katie
Awesome. Well, I'm going to have to go check out the film. I know we talked about some films before we started, but also the stab him and eat him. Sounds like a great one to check out. Careful offering up the opportunity to come up in and dark house be with you because I might have to take you up on that. It sounds like a lot of fun.
Mark
Anytime you want to do it. Seriously. If you want to do it this winter, I know John Kachorek and I will be doing more of it again and probably breaking out the hardwater hunters series. And so you come on up and be part of it. It'd be, it'd be fun. I think you'd have a lot of fun with it.
Katie
That's that sounds great. I'll, I'll definitely be in touch with you. Um, but I'll let you get going for tonight, but thanks again so much for coming on. I had a great time.
Mark
Me too. Thanks a lot, Katie.
Katie
All right, guys. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to head over to the website fishuntamed.com for all episodes and show notes. And also please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. That's very helpful for me and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening and I will be back in two weeks. Bye everybody.
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